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Page 1 of 2: 12
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 PID'ing Miss Silvia on the Cheap
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 11/22/2008 9:26 AM
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 1/4 Pounder  Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
Got your attention Chad? Well, I been reading all the website instruction and PID kit pages and have been amassing data and knowledge. I know I can't afford the top of the line $320 all inclusive PID Kit, and the Randy Glass Me Be PID article figures on $175 is even out of my range. If I choose my parts correctly I should be able to PID my Rancilio for under $100 and the same approach should work with many other espresso machines. Through multiple posts I will break down part numbers and try and explain my choices. But with a Saga This Large the big questions is: What to call it? Driving Miss Silvia? To PID or not to PID? Gone with the Tempsurfing? Wired? Silvia Stalone as Rancilio? Edited by seedlings on 11/25/2008 8:58 AM I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
 I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| BoldJava |
Posted on 11/22/2008 11:38 AM
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 1 1/2 Pounder  Posts: 850 Joined: November 09, 2008 |
Quote MarkBart wrote: ...If I choose my parts correctly I should be able to PID my Rancilio for under $100 and the same approach should work with many other espresso machines. Through multiple posts I will break down part numbers and try and explain my choices... I will follow the thread. (Miss Silvia is unaware of my posts, so shhhh...) Coincidentally, I was reading both Espresso Espresso on PIDs this morning and looking at the various kits out there. Electrical/electronics intimidates me but I have a budd that would see this as a delightful challenge for say, about a case of micro-brews. http://www.sprech....php?cat=2 B|Java Edited by BoldJava on 11/22/2008 11:40 AM |
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| seedlings |
Posted on 11/22/2008 2:56 PM
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 1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 4226 Joined: June 27, 2007 |
MarkyMark you GO! Temp pid, right? I looked at that for my Gaggia before the Nuova Simonelli sprang to life. Have you seen the (I believe HB) thread where the guy drills out the group screw to mount a thermocouple! That is off the chain! Can't wait to see this one come together. I'll have some windex handy to clean the oil off the monitor for when my forhead is glued there. Ears perked! CHAD Edited by seedlings on 11/22/2008 2:56 PM Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500 Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 11/22/2008 7:18 PM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
Yes, I read about drilling out a screw and installing a thermocouple. I have decided on a washer thermocouple for ease of install. I'm not going to introduce any extra chances of leaks some of the more intense installs do. I'm going cheap, easy, and reversable. And so easy that Microbrew should be his to give to You! Parts: 2 Watlow 989a PID's from Ebay $29.76 + $10.85 Shipping = $42.03 (I'll only use one here, the other may get used for cheese making) 1 36inch type T thermocouple from Omega $10 +$8 Shipping 1 25A Solid State Relay from Omega $26 Shipped with above So far total parts are $84.61 with one PID spare free (a pair of dudes could share and get 1 PID each. Hint hint)(I'll give the model numbers and the code break downs for the model numbers below in the Cast of Characters. NOTE: Please read your instruction books carefully, unplug your electrical devices before opening them, if you feel uncomfortable with electricity and these modifications, Stop and get professional help, whether it be by an electrician or by a psychiatrickerist. By all means read all the messages and ask questions until you understand what we're doing here. Be SAFE, Stay SAFE! Please note: This is performed by a professional on a closed course but, Do try this at home! That said. . . Edited by MarkBart on 11/22/2008 7:23 PM I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 11/22/2008 7:29 PM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
Metro-MarkBart-Mayer Presents Miss Silvia meets Bubba Watlow! Starring: Miss Silvia Rancilio 120VAC 1100W Born 02/2003
MarkBart attached the following image:
![Silvia1[1127].jpg](../forum/attachments/Silvia1[1127].jpg)
Edited by MarkBart on 11/22/2008 7:52 PM I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 11/22/2008 8:10 PM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
Our Hero: Watlow 989a-10bc-curr SN:085920 Born on Week 16 Year 1999 Model Number decode: 98 - 1/8th DIN Microprecessor-Based Temperature/Process Controller 9 - 100VAC-240VAC Horizontal Mount A - Standard Software 1 - Input 1 - Thermocouple only (1 Digital Event Input also Included) 0 - Input 2 - None B - Output 1 - Solid State Relay 0.5A C - Output 2 - Switched DC or open collector, isolated C - Output 3 - Switched DC or open collector, isolated U - Output 4 - EIA/TIA-485/EIA/TIA-232 opto-isolated RR - Display - Red/Red display Frontplate size: 4"wide, 2-3/16"tall, 4-3/4"deep Hole size: 3-5/8"wide, 1-3/4"tall, 4"deep space needed
MarkBart attached the following image:
![watlow[1128].jpg](../forum/attachments/watlow[1128].jpg)
I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 11/22/2008 8:37 PM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
With: Omega WTT-10-36 WT - Washer Thermocouple T - Type T -328 to 750 degrees F (-200 to 399 degrees C) 10 - #10 screw hole 36 - cable length in inches stripped leads are standard andOmega SSRL240DC25 SSRL - Solid State Relay 240xx25 - 24 to 280VAC line voltage 25A DC - 3 to 32VDC control voltage 14mA Supporting Cast: (parts that will be needed for assembly) 2-14 guage 12 inch long stranded wires for SSR to Thermostat wires 2-14 guage 36 inch long stranded wires for PID power 2-insulated male fast on tabs to connect to Thermostat wires 2-insulated ring connectors to connect to SSR from Thermostat wires 2-insulated ring connectors to connect to SSR from PID 2-insulated female to male add-on tabs for PID power 1 component box for PID We are still auditioning the supporting cast, so changes may occur. I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 11/22/2008 9:04 PM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
Hi Bill! Quote Seems to me that controlling temp for espresso is trivial compared to the ramp/soak profiling for poppers Sorry, I see it just the opposite, Temperature stability for espresso is all important, while poppers may need ramp and soak profiling, I'm only talking about PIDing a Miss Silvia. I plan on using the built in digital event for steaming, but you might use that second channel, though I see conflicts in using it that way. Maybe auto shot pulls if it has a built in timer. (I'd still worry about overflows). How about lights and siren above the espresso machine so you know when it's being used? Or auto grind for the shot beforehand. Yes the SSR might be expensive, a triac never crossed my mind, I will stick to the tried and true design that will handle the 25A of the boiler. I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 11/22/2008 11:57 PM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
Bill, Murph's PID pages used a 40A and mentioned using a 25A and since the next lowest down was only 10A and MLG PID kits use the SSR, I figured 25A would be best to use. Alas PID for espresso isn't really only for 25 seconds. MLG says it might take the boiler 6 minutes to get up tto temp but thery reccommend 45 minutes to get the brew group up to temp, and prefer an hour Yes, I did get the Units at a good price, and I seen on ebay she has more. I should start testing Monday night when the TC and SSR come in. MarkBart I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 11/23/2008 1:51 AM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
But Bill has a very good point why a 25A SSR? Assuming anywhere from 100-120VAC Miss Silvia is rated at 1100W if calculated out should be in the range of 9 to 11 amps. Thus the jump to the 25A SSR from the 10A one. I don't have the info, Bill can you suggest a triac? Something that a newb to triacs shouldn't mess up. I would be using 3-32vdc to control 120vac at 9-11A. A savings of close to $25 would be a good thing. I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 11/23/2008 12:28 PM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
Agreed a "set point" PID is just what is needed for my case. Which makes the 989A fine for my app while poppers and such are better handled with say a Watlow Series 981 thru 984 which are built for ramping.
I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| seedlings |
Posted on 11/23/2008 2:41 PM
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1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 4226 Joined: June 27, 2007 |
Mark, since your setup will have a setpoint, what do you think the tolerance will be? (Set point) to (setpoint - 5F)? CHAD Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500 Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 11/24/2008 12:08 AM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
Chad, the tolerance will depend on the temperature stability of the PID (+- 0.2 degrees F/degree F) and the the tolerance of the thermocouple and the speed of the changes to the output and the speed of the SSR and how much voltage will be needed to turn the boiler power on and off and how long the boiler has been at temperature and the time since the last shot was taken and the angle of the moon and how much of a load is on the circuit and if I'm using that big shot timer inthe Silvia picture. MarkBart I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| seedlings |
Posted on 11/24/2008 7:34 PM
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1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 4226 Joined: June 27, 2007 |
Quote bvwelch wrote: Mark, If you read through this thread, you'll see I like the BTA20, and there is a sketch/schematic there as well. I've been using them for several months (nearly a year I guess), and continue to be satisfied with them. For your purposes, ignore my cpu, and connector your controller to the input of the triac driver instead. http://forum.home...ead_id=749 -bill Bill you're popper PIDs are killer, and, without taking anything away from that insight, let's keep this thread dedicated to the transition from ordinary silvia to Mark-kicked-up-SilviaZilla meets Bubba Watlow! Mark, you have done your homework, and since I don't care for cats, I want to learn every way there is to skin one. Speaking of that, Mark--- progress report? CHAD Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500 Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 11/25/2008 12:41 AM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
Well, I looked over a few triac datasheets and decided to stick with my original premise of PID'ing Miss Silvia with Bubba Watlow for the common man. After making my daily coffee, I powered off Miss Silvia for some testing. The TC and SSR arrived earlier and as she cooled I mapped the wiring. I followed Randy Glass's Me Be PID at http://home.surew...fee63.html and Murph's Silvia PID Page at http://www.murphy...ilvia.html I removed the front panel, the top plate and the plate between the water tank and the vibrator pump. I drilled 2-1/8 inch holes in the plate next to the 3 way solenoid for the mounting of the SSR. I made 2-12 inch 14 guage cables to go from the brew thermostat connections to the SSR. I crimped male tabs on one end and split lugs on the other. I wired the split lugs to the SSR and replaced the brew thermostat with the wired tabs. Heat has made the plastic overmold on the connections very fragile so I covered any bare metal with electrical tape. I removed a screw from the left side of the brew thermostat and used it and a washer to screw the Thermocouple to the boiler. I ran the TC cable down behind the front panel to a slot in the lower right corner and out of Miss Silvia. I next made up 2-36 inch 20 guage wires with split lugs to the control screws on the SSR and out thru the slot with the TC cable. These three cables run out under Miss Silvia by the power cord and up to the PID. I powered the PID for this test on a separate cord and wired the TC and 2 control cables to the PID. I powered up the PID first and watched it read the room temperature. I then powered Miss Silvia up and nothing blew up or smoked so I watched it come to temp. The boiler came up to temp in 6 minutes but the group was still room temperature. Following Murph's instructions I used the Watlow books and an going to go thru the autotune procedure for this model. We'll see the results in tommorrow morning's cup. MarkBart
MarkBart attached the following image:
![shrink350a[1136].jpg](../forum/attachments/shrink350a[1136].jpg)
Edited by MarkBart on 12/05/2008 12:57 PM I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 11/26/2008 1:31 PM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
Good news - Bad news Pre-autotune: Temp overshoot was about 12 degrees F. Heater kicked in at 3 degrees below set point. Following Murph, I put the set point at 230 degrees F. Using last month's new difussion screen and gasket, Pre-PID coffee stream thru my naked portaflter was classic mouse tail, (large cone narrowing to thin tail into the cup) Post-PID un-tuned was more like a rainforest shower head (large cone barely narrowing into cup). I used output 2 to drive the SSR (using low voltage dc) since output 1's relay could only handle 0.5a, This came back to bite me. When I hit autotune it seemed to only use output 1 and just sat here cooling down. I will have to trick it using a small dc power convertor. I think I need to move the TC maybe lower or affix it differently. Those cracking plastic terminal overmolds will deffinately need replacing for safety. Once I get this working to my satisfaction, I'll pop some more pictures up here before I close it up, (and after I fix my mistakes) But, that will have to wait, I have Turkey to brine and Pie to bake. MarkBart Happy Thanksgiving from out here in the sticks.
MarkBart attached the following image:
![ssr350a[1137].jpg](../forum/attachments/ssr350a[1137].jpg)
Edited by MarkBart on 12/05/2008 12:58 PM I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| jimoncaffeine |
Posted on 11/29/2008 9:59 AM
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 1/4 Pounder Posts: 94 Joined: October 27, 2005 |
MarkBart, Sorry for not responding sooner but I just noticed it. (I don't get out here as often as I'd like any more.) Does your PID have any settings or jumpers for the autotune parameters? I've done a very similar project and did not have the autotune issue you encountered. ( http://homeroaste...ead_id=366 ). Why are you not using output 1 for the ssr? (sorry if I missed it in the info above.) The requirements for output to the ssr as a signal from the pid is well below half an amp(DC - 3 to 32VDC control voltage 14mA)... Is it AC instead of DC? Please keep us posted on your progress as time allows. Regards, Jim |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 12/04/2008 12:57 AM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
Hi Jim, Only autotune parameter, was set it to 90%. I printed out your Thread for reading tommorrow. I didn't want to add in another power supply and knew the Output 1 couldn't handle the AC boiler load, so I followed what others have done and am using Output 2 with it's 3-32vdc to control the SSR. After doing some testing I find this PID won't light L1 if it closes Output 1 but will light L2 if it energizes Output 2. And it seems it doesn't use Output 2 during Autotuning. I wired up an external 12vdc power supply to send power thru Output 1 and into the SSR for the autotune tonight, I'll see what shakes out tommorrow. I got a download of SpecView 32 (the demo) that can commincate with the PID and let me read and set parameters and generate graphs (if only for 10 minutes) I'm afraid the dongle will cost too much for small application. Oh well, it's late, See you tommorrow, same bat time, same bat channel. MarkBart
MarkBart attached the following image:
![Final350a[1138].jpg](../forum/attachments/Final350a[1138].jpg)
Edited by MarkBart on 12/05/2008 12:59 PM I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 12/05/2008 1:17 PM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
Well 12vdc thru Output 1 worked but didn't shut off until 268-280 degrees F at the Steam Thermostat High Limit. Swapped PID out with other unit no change. Tested Output 1 with built in diagnostic TOUT, I can't get 12vdc or 120vac to go through it. Seems like the internal SSR with contact suppresion has failed and will not switch. Output 2 works well with it's 3-32vdc. The PID is running about 7 degrees above set point. I guess I will have to tune Miss Silvia to Bubba Watlow manually. I've opened Miss Silvia up and replaced the baked plastic overmolds with shrink wrapped tubing on all the connections around the boiler. Five years of heating the plastic has made them very brittle and thus it's a safety issue that needed to be handled. I added three spade lug extenders/multipliers and ran power and ground to Bubba from Miss Silvia. Now they both power up from the same switch. I've hung Bubba off the right side of Miss Silvia next to the stand mixer for now until I finish tuning Bubba and until I can get more money allotted to the project. I still need to mount Bubba into a project box and create a hanger so they can be joined. MarkBart
MarkBart attached the following image:
![Silvia350[1139].jpg](../forum/attachments/Silvia350[1139].jpg)
Edited by MarkBart on 12/05/2008 1:17 PM I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| seedlings |
Posted on 12/05/2008 4:59 PM
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1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 4226 Joined: June 27, 2007 |
I have the very same love-hate relationship with mods and experiments. Hang in there and you'll have a Bonafide, Bubbafide little Miss Silvia in a jiffy quick! Keep us posted - great pictures! CHAD Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500 Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 12/06/2008 4:33 PM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
This controller has for control only PIDA Set Point 1 Set Point 2 Idle Set Point Output 1 Output 2 The outputs 1 and 2 have for controls: Proportional Band (expressed in degrees F) Reset (expressed in repeats per minute) Rate (expressed in minutes) Cycle Time (expressed in seconds of a complete on/off cycle) These will be the settings I can change to tune this controller. MarkBart I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 12/11/2008 3:01 PM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
The PID came with: Proportional Band: 10 Reset: 0.01 Rate: 10 The result was overshoot of 12 degrees or more. Steady state showed 7 degrees above set point. The current stable setup I'm running is: Proportional Band:; 20 Reset: 0.02 Rate: 1.16 It is stable on the set point, but it is very slow to return to set point. I will continue to try adjustments. MarkBart I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 12/26/2008 3:33 PM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
Still running on the above setup, controlling Miss Silvia through the output #2 with it's 3-10vdc to control the SSR. I have the second PID on the bench and am trying to determine if they replaced the Output #1 SSR with the wrong device. Output #1 should control the SSR chip to switch 40-280vac. During my testing I'm getting it turned on but won't turn off, and the other extreme where it won't turn on at all. Device in both units is a DPA6111, a 10-35mA controled SSR. This device is also made in a DPA6119 varient, a 3-10vdc controlled SSR. And in DPA4111/DPA4119 120vac varients. All 4 devices are 1A outputs. Specs on PID say 0.5A outputs so I am leary. I'm still testing the second PID but I am leaning towards the PID sending out 4-12mA signal to the 10-35mA controlled SSR as being the problem. When more funds are available I will get a AC controlled SSR for the boiler and search for a more in spec DIP-16 SSR for the PID. MarkBart I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| seedlings |
Posted on 12/26/2008 3:41 PM
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1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 4226 Joined: June 27, 2007 |
Good thing you didn't buy an off-the-shelf Silvia Pid. Where's the fun in that? B) CHAD Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500 Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 12/27/2008 8:48 AM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
It is one of the cheaper xmas presents I've ever purchased myself, and you can see how long a time it's kept me busy, hehehehe I may have to purchase more PID's if I can straighten this out. I'm thinking one for controlling milk temperature during cheese making, one for the ultimate bedroom thermostat (Yes dear, the room is a nice chilly 64.7 degrees F)(lower temperatures keeps her allergies less active)(space heater on output 1, Air Conditioner on output 2, heated matress pad on output 3, Hmm this could work) and maybe one for my restrictor plate roaster, I don't think NASCAR will allow this much instrumentation BUT! Formula 1 will! Merry Christmas Happy New Year Happy Kwanzaa Happy Boxer Day Happy Hanukkah Happy Winter Solstice Happy Pearl Harbor Day Did I miss anyone this month? I hope not! MarkBart Please note, these are in no particular order! I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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