Homeroasters - Home Roasting Coffee Community » ALL ABOUT ROASTERS » ROASTING SOFTWARE APPS
Who is here? 1 guest(s)
 Print Thread
How does this work?
oldgrumpus
Top  #1 Print Post
Posted on 12/20/2022 5:51 PM
I was looking at the Sonofresco FB roaster with their roast control software and thinking to myself..."how does this work?". Maybe others might know or want to speculate with me.

Looking at the way it the heat over and undershoots as it travels along the profile curve makes me think it's "on-off" and not proportional. Thoughts? If it's on-off, maybe this would simplify having Artisan just control a relay hooked to the heat source?

Clever Coffee Dripper
Grinder: Macap M4
Roaster: Completed drum roaster project photos shown here:
Photos https://goo.gl/ph...Da6K4wfqw5
Videos https://www.youtu...Bd1NrdpSUH
 
allenb
Top  #2 Print Post
Posted on 12/20/2022 7:32 PM
Here's a part of their manual where it mentions the on-off control:

17. Hints and Tips
Roast Profile: One way to further understand and monitor the roaster operation is by viewing the roast
profile. The electronic control board is designed to control the rate at which the coffee temperature rises over time.
The roast profile is basically a time versus temperature graph that determines when the
gas is cycled on to heat the beans and then cycled off to prevent the beans form heating to quickly. The
gas is cycled on and off through out the entire active roasting process. The roaster will continue along
the roast profile until the temperature reaches the specified temperature associated with the roast level
setting and then enters the cool down phase. The elapsed time and current roast temperature can be
viewed, during the active roast, via the LED display and referenced to the roast profile graph on the
following page. Real time data can be viewed using the Sonofresco ADR software, call for details.
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
renatoa
Top  #3 Print Post
Posted on 12/21/2022 1:53 AM
why on-off and not on-low... ?
as the thermostat controls my kitchen oven flame, and the temperature swing is between 5C degrees...
 
allenb
Top  #4 Print Post
Posted on 12/21/2022 8:37 AM
Good question. In all of my research on this roaster in the past, it has always stated it was only on-off and not two firing rates being cycled between. This would obviously increase cost with the need for an internal pressure regulator or other means for accomplishing the lower fire rate. Or, maybe they do use a lower fire rate for what they are calling "off" but don't want to add unnecessary additional verbiage to their literature. You would think they would want to advertise an obvious better way of control since it would cost them more to produce the roaster.
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
oldgrumpus
Top  #5 Print Post
Posted on 12/21/2022 5:33 PM
I remember a video of a DIY bench test of a hi low propane burner. I thought I had it saved, but no, couldn’t find it. I think the guy was flipping a switch to a relay setup. Don’t remember well, but think it may have used only one regulator but two needle valves placed on two separate legs to the burner. The relay flipped the valve between the two legs.
Clever Coffee Dripper
Grinder: Macap M4
Roaster: Completed drum roaster project photos shown here:
Photos https://goo.gl/ph...Da6K4wfqw5
Videos https://www.youtu...Bd1NrdpSUH
 
allenb
Top  #6 Print Post
Posted on 12/21/2022 8:25 PM
I think I know what you're referring to. Let me take a look and will get back to you.
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
allenb
Top  #7 Print Post
Posted on 12/21/2022 8:51 PM
Here's one that Lylabrown posted on his 2 stage gas burner setup that may be the one, if not, let me know and I'll keep looking.;

http://homeroaste...ad_id=4189
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
renatoa
Top  #8 Print Post
Posted on 12/22/2022 8:13 AM
What about a single needle regulator, set to maintain the low flame, and a bypass of this regulator, using a relay valve...
 
allenb
Top  #9 Print Post
Posted on 12/22/2022 9:26 AM
I'm sure one could get along with just one pressure regulator along with one solenoid valve and one needle valve. The reason some like to have two needle valves is so that you don't have to readjust the needle valve for low flame every time you make an adjustment to the high flame by increasing overall pressure with the regulator. Will definitely work but will require a little more fiddling when dialing in settings.
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
renatoa
Top  #10 Print Post
Posted on 12/22/2022 9:42 AM
Sure... you need a regulation for high flame too, but I supposed this is external, the knob near the manometer, I see on most gas drum roasters.

Anyway, should work, on-off looks too rough for me, and you can have the surprise the igniter fails to light the flame... curious how is this detected, when it happens... because one day will happen for sure... is not if, but when Grin
Or maybe the on-off logic is designed to retry ignite forever...
 
allenb
Top  #11 Print Post
Posted on 12/22/2022 10:39 AM
I'm with you on this one. On-off with a gas fired fluidbed has no place in a roaster control regimen as there would never be any way to prevent large swings in hot air temp even with the fastest ignition schemes.
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
oldgrumpus
Top  #12 Print Post
Posted on 12/22/2022 12:42 PM

Quote

allenb wrote:

Here's one that Lylabrown posted on his 2 stage gas burner setup that may be the one, if not, let me know and I'll keep looking.;

http://homeroaste...ad_id=4189


That's the one! There was also an associated video that explained it all while demonstrating it.

Regardless, thanks for posting!
Clever Coffee Dripper
Grinder: Macap M4
Roaster: Completed drum roaster project photos shown here:
Photos https://goo.gl/ph...Da6K4wfqw5
Videos https://www.youtu...Bd1NrdpSUH
 
oldgrumpus
Top  #13 Print Post
Posted on 12/22/2022 12:51 PM
So now I must ask if anyone has tried the high-low scheme with a small drum roaster. I am curious about this for my roasts since following a background profile using manual control through the needle valve is beyond my ability. Maybe just zigzagging along the background profile might work. I have enough "junk beans" to try it once and see. Now I need to find the motivation somewhere....
Clever Coffee Dripper
Grinder: Macap M4
Roaster: Completed drum roaster project photos shown here:
Photos https://goo.gl/ph...Da6K4wfqw5
Videos https://www.youtu...Bd1NrdpSUH
 
allenb
Top  #14 Print Post
Posted on 12/22/2022 2:51 PM
Here's a link to a discussion about my two-state propane burner control build for my 1 lb drum roaster. It worked very well.

https://homeroast...ad_id=3506

Another set of posts showing the burner operating in the 2 state mode:

https://homeroast...post_44655
Edited by allenb on 12/22/2022 3:04 PM
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
oldgrumpus
Top  #15 Print Post
Posted on 12/22/2022 6:12 PM
Here's the link to Lylabrown's roaster videos on Vimeo. The two stage burner is shown in several videos.
https://vimeo.com...
Clever Coffee Dripper
Grinder: Macap M4
Roaster: Completed drum roaster project photos shown here:
Photos https://goo.gl/ph...Da6K4wfqw5
Videos https://www.youtu...Bd1NrdpSUH
 
Yasu
Top  #16 Print Post
Posted on 12/22/2022 11:14 PM
This may be out of line with what is being discussed, but I have tried various methods of gas control as well.
In the end, when I tried to control the gas volume by tracing the background, I could not easily control the PID or manual control because of the large time lag (30 to 60 seconds delay) when trying to control the heat volume by changing the BT in the case of drum type.

The gas controls the base part, so I let the PID control the BT temperature with only a small displacement on a hot gun with good response.

The gas burner burns at a specified curve for each hour to support precise control of the hot gun. (ramp soak control with no feedback). (I'm compromising)
The gas is controlled by a proportional valve with a flow meter and a cheap temperature regulator 4-20ma.

https://www.ckd.c...il/108/FCM

It would be wonderful if PID control could be achieved using only gas burners, so please do your best.
Edited by renatoa on 12/23/2022 1:33 AM
 
renatoa
Top  #17 Print Post
Posted on 12/23/2022 1:31 AM

Quote

oldgrumpus wrote:

So now I must ask if anyone has tried the high-low scheme with a small drum roaster. I am curious about this for my roasts since following a background profile using manual control through the needle valve is beyond my ability. Maybe just zigzagging along the background profile might work. I have enough "junk beans" to try it once and see. Now I need to find the motivation somewhere....


If you perform a step response test on your roaster, this should tell enough to find your machine natural curve and perform a close enough roast with very little adjustment.
Trying to drive along a way a machine with 30 seconds lag time is simply not recommended. Even a tank is more responsive Grin
Better off-road, but with an eye on the destination.
 
Yasu
Top  #18 Print Post
Posted on 12/23/2022 2:54 AM
My machine is a heavy tank, but I like it because I can trace the background curves I draw without missing a single degree.
Please don't tease me too much.
 
Jump to Forum: