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Page 1 of 2: 12
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 PID'ing Miss Silvia on the Cheap
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 12/06/2008 4:33 PM
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 1/4 Pounder  Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
This controller has for control only PIDA Set Point 1 Set Point 2 Idle Set Point Output 1 Output 2 The outputs 1 and 2 have for controls: Proportional Band (expressed in degrees F) Reset (expressed in repeats per minute) Rate (expressed in minutes) Cycle Time (expressed in seconds of a complete on/off cycle) These will be the settings I can change to tune this controller. MarkBart I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
 I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 12/11/2008 3:01 PM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
The PID came with: Proportional Band: 10 Reset: 0.01 Rate: 10 The result was overshoot of 12 degrees or more. Steady state showed 7 degrees above set point. The current stable setup I'm running is: Proportional Band:; 20 Reset: 0.02 Rate: 1.16 It is stable on the set point, but it is very slow to return to set point. I will continue to try adjustments. MarkBart I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 12/26/2008 3:33 PM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
Still running on the above setup, controlling Miss Silvia through the output #2 with it's 3-10vdc to control the SSR. I have the second PID on the bench and am trying to determine if they replaced the Output #1 SSR with the wrong device. Output #1 should control the SSR chip to switch 40-280vac. During my testing I'm getting it turned on but won't turn off, and the other extreme where it won't turn on at all. Device in both units is a DPA6111, a 10-35mA controled SSR. This device is also made in a DPA6119 varient, a 3-10vdc controlled SSR. And in DPA4111/DPA4119 120vac varients. All 4 devices are 1A outputs. Specs on PID say 0.5A outputs so I am leary. I'm still testing the second PID but I am leaning towards the PID sending out 4-12mA signal to the 10-35mA controlled SSR as being the problem. When more funds are available I will get a AC controlled SSR for the boiler and search for a more in spec DIP-16 SSR for the PID. MarkBart I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| seedlings |
Posted on 12/26/2008 3:41 PM
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 1 1/2 Pounder  Posts: 4226 Joined: June 27, 2007 |
Good thing you didn't buy an off-the-shelf Silvia Pid. Where's the fun in that? B) CHAD Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500 Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 12/27/2008 8:48 AM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
It is one of the cheaper xmas presents I've ever purchased myself, and you can see how long a time it's kept me busy, hehehehe I may have to purchase more PID's if I can straighten this out. I'm thinking one for controlling milk temperature during cheese making, one for the ultimate bedroom thermostat (Yes dear, the room is a nice chilly 64.7 degrees F)(lower temperatures keeps her allergies less active)(space heater on output 1, Air Conditioner on output 2, heated matress pad on output 3, Hmm this could work) and maybe one for my restrictor plate roaster, I don't think NASCAR will allow this much instrumentation BUT! Formula 1 will! Merry Christmas Happy New Year Happy Kwanzaa Happy Boxer Day Happy Hanukkah Happy Winter Solstice Happy Pearl Harbor Day Did I miss anyone this month? I hope not! MarkBart Please note, these are in no particular order! I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 01/07/2009 11:31 AM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
After connecting power supply 1 (a 120VAC brick that outputs 12VAC and converts that to 3.9VDC 430mA) to Output 1 of the PID and using the 3.9VDC to control the solid state relay on the bench, I find Silvia the drops too low to control the SSR. Searching about my junk pile I find power supply 2 (a 12VDC 400mA board powered thru a 120VAC to 18VAC transformer) I ran the 18VAC thru Output 1 of the PID and used the resulting 12VDC to control the SSR. It woirks. I can now autotune the PID and have recieved these numbers: PB 10 20 16 11 12 12 30 Rset .01 .02 .02 .02 .03 .02 .03 Rate 10 1.16 1.16 .85 .83 .85 .93 All seem slow to settle and most settle above the set point. I will continue to test and tweak, although I am prefering 225 to 228 degrees F for my shots. I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| seedlings |
Posted on 01/07/2009 11:42 AM
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1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 4226 Joined: June 27, 2007 |
So... it's... working? I have a vision of a kitchen full of equipment next to your Silvia, like the first IBM computer. Are you able to hold the temperature at 225-228F, and does steaming require a higher temp? CHAD Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500 Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover |
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| JimG |
Posted on 01/08/2009 11:38 AM
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 1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 834 Joined: October 23, 2008 |
Try these tuning parameters: P = 10F - 15F rE = 0.25 to 0.40 / min rA = 0.15 to 0.30 min, or 9 to 18 seconds, depending on units Somewhere within those ranges should give you good performance. If you tune manually, I suggest dialing in P and rE first while keeping rA at zero. Then add rA as needed to control overshoot a little. Are we having fun yet? I've used the vertical version of that controller (988A) with great success on a Silvia in my kitchen. The digital event input can be used for steam control, as you already noted. My 988A has two inputs. I have a group temp sensor wired to the second input. So I can control the boiler temp, plus display both the boiler temp and the group temp at any time. Jim Edited by JimG on 01/08/2009 11:40 AM |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 01/10/2009 10:12 AM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
Quote seedlings wrote: So... it's... working? I have a vision of a kitchen full of equipment next to your Silvia, like the first IBM computer. Are you able to hold the temperature at 225-228F, and does steaming require a higher temp? CHAD I want to Thank JimG for those tuning parameters, Chad, the PID's, SSR and Thermocouple worked the first time I wired them together. But since I was using the Output 2 (3-10VDC) the autotune didn't want to work the way I expected it to. The autotune expects 4 crossings of the set point to complete it's learning in 80 minutes. With the setting of 90%, that meant the temp must fall to about 200 degrees F before the PID would turn on the boiler. And when it did for the first time it was only for about 30 seconds and the temp would coast back down where the PID would fire the boiler again and wait for the temp to peak. If the temp crossed the set point it would get crossing 2 and coast to crossing 3 then refire the boiler to crossing 4, thus completeing the autotuning. But, if it didn't reach set point the PID would refire the boiler as the temp started to drop and retest for set point crossing and continue to do this untill it timed out at 80 minutes or 4 crossings which ever came first. And Yes Chad, it does look like a mad scientists lab, see pic. From left to right: Britta Water Filter(boxed to keep water from light, cute cat towel on top to keep it clean) Miss Silvia (modesty panel removed to check SSR connections and operating led) Watlow 989A (hanging off the side) AC to DC Power Supply (for autotuning only, Electronics circa 1985 cigarbox era (Stand mixer normally sits here, it's below under the pillowcase)) And last but not least, follow the 4 conductor cable, past the deep fryer and photo timer to the washing machine covered with coffee bags for the cats to sun on is my $200 Dell running SpecView and recording and graphing times and temps. (Demo mode only - no dongle) This doesn't include the workbench / coffee table (appropo) where the second PID is wired to my breadboards so I can test the replacement output relay DIP-16"s. MarkBart
MarkBart attached the following image:
I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 01/10/2009 10:28 AM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
You asked about steaming, since I really don't steam, I use the steam wand and hot water switch to refill the boiler before I pull shots. About an hour after I turn the machine on and about 10 minutes before I pull my shots. I left the Steam thermostat wired in place in case I wanted to use it. The steam switch still does function as intended. MarkBart I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 01/11/2009 3:09 AM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
I did find out that when they say Output 1 is 20-280VAC they mean it. The DIP-16 SSR has a built in Zero Crossing so it will follow the control signal's directions when the controled voltage crosses the zero state. If one tries to control a DC voltage, it will turn on and not turn off. And everything seems to point to the 2nd PID on the bench to have a cracked etch for the output of the DIP-16 SSR. Me thinks someone got heavy handed soldering in the SSR chip. I noticed both units had RMA numbers hand lettered on the boards inside. Next step with power supply 2 will be to control the 120VAC thru Output 1 instead of the 18VAC. then see if I can find something close to JimG's numbers I like. I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| seedlings |
Posted on 01/11/2009 1:06 PM
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1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 4226 Joined: June 27, 2007 |
We're following, Mark, I just wish I could add something. I'm fascinated, and learning... CHAD Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500 Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 02/03/2009 9:47 AM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
The Story so far . . . Working with JimG's numbers and toying with it I seem to come to a nice workable set of numbers for me. P 10 rE 0.4 rA 0.2 and a setpoint of 230 degrees F I'm really leaning towards replceing the wire hanging the PID off the side of Miss Silvia with a sheet metal holder, more later, Time for COFFEE! I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| seedlings |
Posted on 02/03/2009 11:27 AM
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1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 4226 Joined: June 27, 2007 |
How does the Brazil Foremosa fare in Miss Sylvia? Makes a nice brew in my setup. CHAD Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500 Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover |
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| Koffee Kosmo |
Posted on 02/03/2009 5:49 PM
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 Administrator  Posts: 1620 Joined: December 31, 2008 |
I went straight for and purchased a HX machine a Bezzera Galatea But wanted to start on a Silvia Unfortunately the Silvia cant make several coffees at one sitting (4-8 shots) my requirements are over its design capabilities. KK I home roast and I like it. Designer of the KKTO
Roaster Build information https://homeroast...ad_id=1142 https://docs.goog...lide=id.i0 Blog - http://koffeekosm...gspot.com/ Bezzera Strega, Mazzer Robur Grinder, Pullman Tamper Convex, (KKTO) Turbo Oven Home Roaster. |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 02/04/2009 3:24 PM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
Shhh, not so loud, wouldn't want my Miss Silvia to hear. I normally pull 2 back-to-back shots usung my triple basket loaded with 23 grams ground at 3 dots from my Rocky's tooth crash. I'd say they are Lungo's at about 4 ounces each. And if Miss Silvia hears she's not supposed to do that, I'm in real deep trouble. I only have to pet Whiskers about 2-3 minutes before Miss Silvia is ready for the second shot. Whiskers has learned that when it's my coffee time, performing his "Cute Kitty" trick (close to my prep area of the chest freezer) of laying on his back with his feet curled up head bent looking at me up side down with them big kitty eyes will usually earn him a bowl of milk. Small price to pay i'd say for my coffee. Chad, the brazilian you are asking about was nice brown coffee, to say it was well rounded and smooth, i'd drink it in place of the Challamayo from Invalsa. They are very similar to our simple palates. The wife and I agree, while it's was hard to place the flavors we'd rank it just slightly under the Challamayo. I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 03/25/2009 8:19 AM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
Update, I'm finding the Thermocouple leads are working themselves loose every so often, I may have to solder on a couple of spade lugs, I hope that won't change the TC readings, Miss Silvia needs a new steam shutoff gasket, which means replacing it and 4 o-rings and possibly copper gasket. I hope they are in stock now.
I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| seedlings |
Posted on 03/25/2009 8:33 AM
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1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 4226 Joined: June 27, 2007 |
Is there any way to further isolate the vibe pump? Better bushings or something? CHAD Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500 Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 03/25/2009 8:55 AM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
Well Chad, I guess I could move the hanging wire on the external PID to the Mixer next to Miss Silvia. There is enough slack in the wires after I fed them out of Silvia. My guess is the smaller guage wire doesn't grip well under that square washer that comes on the terminal screw. I could try wrapping the wire between the screw head and that square washer, but i don't know if there is enough shoulder on the screwhead to grip well. I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| MarkBart |
Posted on 01/07/2010 10:52 AM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 192 Joined: April 07, 2007 |
Miss Silvia is still wortking fine, the extra wire stripped off the TC leads and wrapped arround the terminals has been rock solid. After testing with an AC controlled SSR (power lead to internal PID SSR common - to NO contact out to one control terminal. Power return to other control terminal) caused SSR to stay on all the time. Inserting a 200v Zener diode between 2nd control terminal and power return (in the correct direction) solved the problem. Thus I could control the boiler with either the internal SSR and AC SSR on output 1, or the 3-10vdc and DC SSR on output 2 like I did in the build, depending on what I had handy. $9 SSR's from China via Ebay worked as well as $26 SSR's from Omega.
I'm so Bad, I'm Good!
I'm putting the small back into Small Business! |
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| Abie24 |
Posted on 08/21/2019 6:31 PM
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 Newbie  Posts: 1 Joined: August 14, 2019 |
Hi! I know this thread is old but maybe someone will answer :) I read a lot of information about Miss Silvia and Gaggia. I would like to buy one of them but I can't decide which one would be better. I also read this article: https://coffee-wo...io-silvia/ But I would like some personal advice, maybe there is someone who owned both of the machines, which one has less issues? Thank you :) |
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| pi-coffee-roaster |
Posted on 08/27/2019 2:56 AM
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Newbie Posts: 6 Joined: March 02, 2019 |
I have the Silvia machine, and have also used the Gaggia Classic. Both can make a very good espresso. I would say that the Silvia is better built - everything is a bit more rugged/solid, so it will probably win on longevity. Mine is about 6 years old and still works very reliably. It works even better with a PID modification, if that is something you are interested in doing. The Gaggia has a larger drip tray, meaning that you don't have to empty it so often. Earlier versions of it had a cheap steam wand that needed to be upgraded, but I understand that the latest version comes with a better steam wand. |
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