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Roasting Fruit Bomb Coffees
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smatty1 |
Posted on 11/22/2009 8:25 AM
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1/2 Pounder Posts: 380 Joined: November 08, 2008 |
Quote John Despres wrote: Super busy, which is a good thing... Today is day 4 since the experiment. I've been tasting all along and am surprised by what I've discovered. More later. I roasted three bathes of CHADS'S Ethiopia Sidamo Shanta Golba. The profiles I ued are above - Anybody care to venture a guess as to what happened? I've probably preheated for the past 40-50 roasts. More tonight I hope, but I have to get to work. John No way! You tease! Oh the suspense! Edited by smatty1 on 11/22/2009 8:25 AM |
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gene |
Posted on 11/22/2009 12:09 PM
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1/2 Pounder Posts: 224 Joined: February 02, 2009 |
This profile won, of course(pure guess): 300F preheat 482F to 1st 444F to EOR To preheat 325 for six min would be rushing first C would it not? Most imp equation would be drawing out first C so it don't rush into second...right? Careful not to lose sight of our goal: To bring out the most fruit.... |
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John Despres |
Posted on 11/22/2009 3:53 PM
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Administrator Posts: 2221 Joined: January 09, 2008 |
I seem to have a little spare time due to a little accident at the shop drilling an unclamped piece of sheet metal. Only 13 stitches in two fingers of my left hand. Here are the 3 profiles - I'll refer to them by number from here on. #1 325F preheat No warming stage 482F to 1st 444F to EOR #2: Preheat to 300F 325F for 5 482F to 1st 444F to EOR #3 Preheat to 300F Then 325 for 6 482F to 1st 444F to EOR First observation: I hit the yellow stage at roughly 6 minutes for every roast regardless of profile (I don't remember why, though). Notes: 2 batches roasted to City and pulled to cool 30 seconds after completion of 1st - #3 lingered an extra 30 seconds. 1st crack lasted almost exactly two minutes for each roast. Appearance of each roast was the same uneven Ethiopian one would expect from a City roast 1st crack #1 - 1st crack at 11:00 #2 - 1st crack at 12:13 #3 - 1st crack at 12:50 Each roast was 227 grams of green coffee Final weight was: #1 - 199 grams #2 - 199 grams #3 - 198 grams Ah, now the very interesting part. I started drinking it the very next day. Every cup was prepared in the Clever Coffee Dripper - 22 grams of coffee to 361 grams of water and steeped for 5 minutes and filtered with a Chemex filter. One surprising aspect was the bean fragrance: Day one, roast #1 was the fruitiest and most pleasing. Day 2, roast #3 moved to the top fragrance slot, days 3 & 4, roast #2 slid to the top. Today #3 is winning. In the grind fragrance, the same pattern as above occurred. In the cup, they were not very different at all, oddly. But I will say they were all terrible for the first 2 days; way too bright and and acidic. Ptui!!! Day three saw the anticipated change begin to occur. Friday they were becoming the very enjoyable cup I was hoping for. And hoping I was. You see, I'm not a fan of City roasts at all. Minimum for me is City +. Now this is the only coffee in the house, so its all I had to drink, and I mean drink, not sample, sink and brew another cup. Being as this was the only coffee I had and was "forced" to drink it, I came to enjoy this City roast very much and am looking forward to more like roasts The nuances in flavor are so remarkably different from Full City! ho knew? Well, not me, that's for sure. Ultimately, the differences in the cup are negligible. Truly. If there were to be a winner, I'd have to say #'s 1 & 3 win with #2 a close second. But they are all delicious. Now for one more cup of #1. This is more fun than a body ought to be allowed! Questions? John Respect the bean.
John Despres Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers. |
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smatty1 |
Posted on 11/22/2009 5:10 PM
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1/2 Pounder Posts: 380 Joined: November 08, 2008 |
Quote John Despres wrote: I seem to have a little spare time due to a little accident at the shop drilling an unclamped piece of sheet metal. Only 13 stitches in two fingers of my left hand. Here are the 3 profiles - I'll refer to them by number from here on. #1 325F preheat No warming stage 482F to 1st 444F to EOR #2: Preheat to 300F 325F for 5 482F to 1st 444F to EOR #3 Preheat to 300F Then 325 for 6 482F to 1st 444F to EOR First observation: I hit the yellow stage at roughly 6 minutes for every roast regardless of profile (I don't remember why, though). Notes: 2 batches roasted to City and pulled to cool 30 seconds after completion of 1st - #3 lingered an extra 30 seconds. 1st crack lasted almost exactly two minutes for each roast. Appearance of each roast was the same uneven Ethiopian one would expect from a City roast 1st crack #1 - 1st crack at 11:00 #2 - 1st crack at 12:13 #3 - 1st crack at 12:50 Each roast was 227 grams of green coffee Final weight was: #1 - 199 grams #2 - 199 grams #3 - 198 grams Ah, now the very interesting part. I started drinking it the very next day. Every cup was prepared in the Clever Coffee Dripper - 22 grams of coffee to 361 grams of water and steeped for 5 minutes and filtered with a Chemex filter. One surprising aspect was the bean fragrance: Day one, roast #1 was the fruitiest and most pleasing. Day 2, roast #3 moved to the top fragrance slot, days 3 & 4, roast #2 slid to the top. Today #3 is winning. In the grind fragrance, the same pattern as above occurred. In the cup, they were not very different at all, oddly. But I will say they were all terrible for the first 2 days; way too bright and and acidic. Ptui!!! Day three saw the anticipated change begin to occur. Friday they were becoming the very enjoyable cup I was hoping for. And hoping I was. You see, I'm not a fan of City roasts at all. Minimum for me is City +. Now this is the only coffee in the house, so its all I had to drink, and I mean drink, not sample, sink and brew another cup. Being as this was the only coffee I had and was "forced" to drink it, I came to enjoy this City roast very much and am looking forward to more like roasts The nuances in flavor are so remarkably different from Full City! ho knew? Well, not me, that's for sure. Ultimately, the differences in the cup are negligible. Truly. If there were to be a winner, I'd have to say #'s 1 & 3 win with #2 a close second. But they are all delicious. Now for one more cup of #1. This is more fun than a body ought to be allowed! Questions? John Hope your hand feels better John! Sounds like a nasty little accident! It appears that there is no reason why I'm not getting the fruit bombs to perform to expectation. Since all your profiles yielded similar results, I dont see why mine have been underwhelming lately. Maybe nothing is living up to the Korate of last year? Maybe I'm crazy? Surprising that those different profiles yielded such similar results. Do you have a conclusion about this experiment? This question too: Is it safe to say that a "quick to C1" profile should be adopted for fruity beans and a "slower ramp/warming stage" profile for beans that beg body developement? |
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seedlings |
Posted on 11/22/2009 5:27 PM
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1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 4226 Joined: June 27, 2007 |
John, does this change your opinion at all about the 5 minutes at 300F warming stage? Since they all yellowed in the same length of time, maybe this is just the fastest the Genecafe can dry beans? Very curious results, though, as I thought there would be more difference in the cups. Thanks for doing the "test"! (I know it was hard for you to roast a bunch of coffee then drink it.) CHAD Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500 Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover |
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John Despres |
Posted on 11/22/2009 8:04 PM
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Administrator Posts: 2221 Joined: January 09, 2008 |
I think, CHAD, I'll play with this a bit more. Same experiment with a Central or South American and some other varieties. I'm prone to think it won't matter; the results will be similar. Hey, is the Nic you sent a SHG? Yes, if continued experiments with various beans yield results similar, I will indeed change my mind. Really, why put off 1st crack if there's no apparent benefit? Smatty1, I don't really have any solid conclusions, yet. I'll try it some more and see... And I'll keep read, roasting and drinking. Now this may be specific to the Gene Cafe and hold no merit whatsoever for another roaster. John Respect the bean.
John Despres Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers. |
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seedlings |
Posted on 11/22/2009 9:51 PM
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1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 4226 Joined: June 27, 2007 |
Nicaragua SHG Limoncillo JavaNica Great racing horse name? CHAD Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500 Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover |
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John Despres |
Posted on 11/22/2009 9:58 PM
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Administrator Posts: 2221 Joined: January 09, 2008 |
Quote seedlings wrote: Nicaragua SHG Limoncillo JavaNica Great racing horse name? CHAD Oooo, an excellent choice for round two! Do you have a degree of roast recommendation, CHAD? John Respect the bean.
John Despres Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers. |
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smatty1 |
Posted on 11/22/2009 10:13 PM
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1/2 Pounder Posts: 380 Joined: November 08, 2008 |
Quote John Despres wrote: Quote seedlings wrote: Nicaragua SHG Limoncillo JavaNica Great racing horse name? CHAD Oooo, an excellent choice for round two! Do you have a degree of roast recommendation, CHAD? John I roasted the DP version last week. It is bold and delicious, but alas, no fruit...and the description says a "true fruit bomb coffee". I used the: 300 for 6 476 til C1 444 til end Next time I'll try without the warming stage..... |
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seedlings |
Posted on 11/23/2009 7:07 AM
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1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 4226 Joined: June 27, 2007 |
This one is wet-process, I believe. I've only done one City+ batch and got gentle Toffee, Noughat, vanilla and spice, but none of the "sweet lime" that the rep said was in there. I think Full City might be a better target... not for lime, but to pull out more Toffee. I think I'm going to do a Full City (verge of 2C) and a Vienna (trailing end of 2C) to side-by-side them. CHAD Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500 Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover |
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John Despres |
Posted on 11/23/2009 7:18 AM
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Administrator Posts: 2221 Joined: January 09, 2008 |
smatty, when did you hit 1st crack and when did you end the roast? Also, how long are you resting the coffee before drinking? I roasted these batches last Wednesday and today, batch #3 is presenting a very nicely fruited cup. John Edited by John Despres on 11/23/2009 7:25 AM Respect the bean.
John Despres Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers. |
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smatty1 |
Posted on 11/23/2009 11:39 AM
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1/2 Pounder Posts: 380 Joined: November 08, 2008 |
Quote John Despres wrote: smatty, when did you hit 1st crack and when did you end the roast? Also, how long are you resting the coffee before drinking? I roasted these batches last Wednesday and today, batch #3 is presenting a very nicely fruited cup. John I wanna say C1 was 15.8 or so....didnt note that. Roast was ended @ 14.00. I usually try most coffees after 2 days rest and track it's progress from there. This one was roasted on 11/13, so it's had plenty of rest.... |
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John Despres |
Posted on 11/24/2009 7:18 AM
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Administrator Posts: 2221 Joined: January 09, 2008 |
Hmmm. I take it you're using the countdown timer on the roaster starting with full 30 minutes. 15.8 would be about 15:15 into the roast elapsed time and you ended the roast about 14 minutes which would be at 17 minutes elapsed time. I wonder if you may be pulling the a smidge roast too soon. Try letting first crack come to an end - it should last about 2 minutes and that will be about a City roast and then give it another 30 seconds or so. Do you have a lot of chaff on the beans when finished? Also, I suggest you keep a log of your roasts. It will help you track differences in your roasts. If you like, I can send you mine. With very rare exceptions, I log every single roast and can go back to a roast I did, say, 18 months ago. If you're hitting 1st at roughly 15:15, that's a long time. Try pouring the heat on setting the roaster at 482F from the start and see what happens. I use a count up timer like a stop watch and ignore the timer on the roaster. Now I really wonder if your roasts are taking too long. When I predict 1st crack at 12 or 13 minutes, and you hit the same mark using a countdown timer, elapsed time is really 18 or 19 minutes. That's not the coffee we want you to roast. You can get an inexpensive stopwatch pretty much anywhere and I suggest you give that a try as well, then we'll be on the same page. John Edited by John Despres on 11/24/2009 7:37 AM Respect the bean.
John Despres Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers. |
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seedlings |
Posted on 11/24/2009 7:26 AM
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1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 4226 Joined: June 27, 2007 |
Check this out: http://www.sweetm...ober09.pdf And thanks, bvwelch for the info! CHAD Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500 Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover |
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gene |
Posted on 11/24/2009 9:03 AM
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1/2 Pounder Posts: 224 Joined: February 02, 2009 |
Hey guys and gals. Don't listen to John Despres! You'll get hooked like me, purchase you a $4.00 digital timer at Bed Bath and Beyond and log every nuance of the roast. My chart: 5:00, 6:00, 7:00, 8:00, 9:00, 10:00, 11:00, Outlying Crack, First, C, Drop, Hit Cool, Off. Plus Wt, Ambient temp, etc. This chart was first suggested by Smiling Eddie, pictured above, and brought to fruition with John's help. But it allows me to ask John questions and gives me a reference to improve and keep up with degrees of improvement and.... Well it adds to the fun! Sorry, gotta go check the temp. Me and my GC are due outside when ambient temp reaches 55 range today. Forecast of snow Friday so have no choice! |
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smatty1 |
Posted on 11/24/2009 3:38 PM
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1/2 Pounder Posts: 380 Joined: November 08, 2008 |
Quote John Despres wrote: Hmmm. I take it you're using the countdown timer on the roaster starting with full 30 minutes. 15.8 would be about 15:15 into the roast elapsed time and you ended the roast about 14 minutes which would be at 17 minutes elapsed time. I wonder if you may be pulling the a smidge roast too soon. Try letting first crack come to an end - it should last about 2 minutes and that will be about a City roast and then give it another 30 seconds or so. Do you have a lot of chaff on the beans when finished? Also, I suggest you keep a log of your roasts. It will help you track differences in your roasts. If you like, I can send you mine. With very rare exceptions, I log every single roast and can go back to a roast I did, say, 18 months ago. If you're hitting 1st at roughly 15:15, that's a long time. Try pouring the heat on setting the roaster at 482F from the start and see what happens. I use a count up timer like a stop watch and ignore the timer on the roaster. Now I really wonder if your roasts are taking too long. When I predict 1st crack at 12 or 13 minutes, and you hit the same mark using a countdown timer, elapsed time is really 18 or 19 minutes. That's not the coffee we want you to roast. You can get an inexpensive stopwatch pretty much anywhere and I suggest you give that a try as well, then we'll be on the same page. John Questions: Are you suggesting doing away with the drying phase after your tests? Do you think the timer on the GC is not too accurate? I typically pull roast just before C2 starts. Sometimes a little sooner, but I dont think I've ever pulled before C1 was finished. I dont usually have a lot of chaff on the bean after roast. Occasionally I do. My hesitation about keeping a log (other than laziness:)) is that I rarely roast the same bean more than 2wice since I usually buy 1lb bags, so I didnt think a log would help me since I'm always roasting something different.?? |
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John Despres |
Posted on 11/24/2009 7:54 PM
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Administrator Posts: 2221 Joined: January 09, 2008 |
I'm suggesting you experiment. I seem to recall you saying your roaster does not heat up very fast. Have you run an empty test of your machine? Starting with a cold roaster, set the temp to 482F and turn it on and keep careful track of exactly how long it takes to reach 482F. Your roasts seem to be taking a very long time to complete and you should try (don't dispense) another idea. Also, how much time is there from the beginning of 1st crack to the beginning of 2nd crack? As to the countdown timer on the Gene Cafe, you can certainly use what you like, but after figuring it out in real elapsed time, I see your roasts are taking an inordinately long time. Every time you said I predicted the time of 1st crack, we were both wrong - the only times that match on our timers is 15 minutes - providing you start with the 30 minute setting. When I say 13 minutes with a count up timer, and you say thirteen minutes referring to a countdown timer, we're off by 5 minutes. 13 minutes on the countdown timer (assuming you start at 30 minutes) is a real time of 18 minutes in the roaster. That's a lot. No matter what profile you use, knowing the actual times events occur is the best way for us to help. As to keeping logs, they are a constant reference to similar and/or like beans. Logs of successful roasts will give you a huge leg up on future roasts of similar beans. Once you begin to see the commonalities between roasts, you'll soon know where to start with a new bean. Another reason to keep a log is to share as much information with us as possible in order for us to help. This is way, WAY fun! John Respect the bean.
John Despres Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers. |
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smatty1 |
Posted on 11/24/2009 8:28 PM
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1/2 Pounder Posts: 380 Joined: November 08, 2008 |
Quote John Despres wrote: I'm suggesting you experiment. I seem to recall you saying your roaster does not heat up very fast. Have you run an empty test of your machine? Starting with a cold roaster, set the temp to 482F and turn it on and keep careful track of exactly how long it takes to reach 482F. Your roasts seem to be taking a very long time to complete and you should try (don't dispense) another idea. Also, how much time is there from the beginning of 1st crack to the beginning of 2nd crack? As to the countdown timer on the Gene Cafe, you can certainly use what you like, but after figuring it out in real elapsed time, I see your roasts are taking an inordinately long time. Every time you said I predicted the time of 1st crack, we were both wrong - the only times that match on our timers is 15 minutes - providing you start with the 30 minute setting. When I say 13 minutes with a count up timer, and you say thirteen minutes referring to a countdown timer, we're off by 5 minutes. 13 minutes on the countdown timer (assuming you start at 30 minutes) is a real time of 18 minutes in the roaster. That's a lot. No matter what profile you use, knowing the actual times events occur is the best way for us to help. As to keeping logs, they are a constant reference to similar and/or like beans. Logs of successful roasts will give you a huge leg up on future roasts of similar beans. Once you begin to see the commonalities between roasts, you'll soon know where to start with a new bean. Another reason to keep a log is to share as much information with us as possible in order for us to help. This is way, WAY fun! John Ok...I'll try keeping a log. Can you send me your template? My roast times have increased with the addition of 6 mins @ 300. Prior to that, I almost always hit C1 @ 17.4 on the GC timer. |
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John Despres |
Posted on 11/25/2009 8:38 AM
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Administrator Posts: 2221 Joined: January 09, 2008 |
OK, back to my experiment. The shortest, fastest roast has come out the winner. Without checking the labels, I huff each bean and choose the most fragrant at that moment and brew it, then I set my second choice aside for my next cup. Roast #1 has been most consistently my favorite with the other two sort of bouncing back and forth. If there were to be a second place, it'd have to be roast #3. I usually have a towel over the roaster for added insulation so I cannot see the beans, but I've been watching more lately. Seems beans hit the yellow stage between 6 & 7 minutes every time, no matter if I warm/dry them or not. Might rethink some things. Got some noodling to do. John Respect the bean.
John Despres Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers. |
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seedlings |
Posted on 11/25/2009 9:34 AM
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1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 4226 Joined: June 27, 2007 |
Quote seedlings wrote: My money is in lane #1 for fruit bomb! CHAD Whaddya know? CHAD Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500 Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover |
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gene |
Posted on 11/25/2009 12:16 PM
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1/2 Pounder Posts: 224 Joined: February 02, 2009 |
John: The towel idea is new to me. Sounds like a way for me to roast with Gene Cafe outside this winter. Say you go for 300 to 6min, 1st crack at 12, down to 450 for say 4 mn, hit cool, etc. Do you put towel on from beginning to end? Do you put towel on and leave exhaust exposed? And remove towel only to make temp adjustments? Thanks |
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John Despres |
Posted on 11/25/2009 9:11 PM
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Administrator Posts: 2221 Joined: January 09, 2008 |
Gene, my towel is small and just lays over the clear plastic cowl. I use it beginning to end. John Respect the bean.
John Despres Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers. |
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John Despres |
Posted on 12/01/2009 10:41 AM
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Administrator Posts: 2221 Joined: January 09, 2008 |
One more report - The first batch is coming out as the best of the three. Routine is to smell the beans blind before brewing and just choosing the best smelling batch out of the three. The past 4,5 days # 1 has come out the winner. Brewed today in the Yama Vac pot with Cory rod, this is outstanding! Apricot, fruit cocktail and a hint of blueberry at the fore. Body huge and the aftertaste as wonderful dried fruit. It's been resting 13 days now. Another interesting note - Last week when I cut up my hand, I had a small thermos of the same coffee prepared to enjoy through the morning. Instead of drinking it, I went to the hospital for some repairs, but discovered it the evening of the next day and brought it in to the kitchen and tasted it out of curiosity. Wow! It was winey and fruity and I drank it up. I've never been a chilled coffee fan, but this may have changed my mind. YUM! John Edited by John Despres on 12/01/2009 10:41 AM Respect the bean.
John Despres Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers. |
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gene |
Posted on 12/02/2009 11:31 AM
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1/2 Pounder Posts: 224 Joined: February 02, 2009 |
Amazing John-Same thing happened to me. After my first cup yesterday morning my two VISTA's called. Had to run down thru watershed with them and didn't get back until late yesterday. Couldn't wait long enough to brew second cup of the day and decided to try it cold. WOW! Half Rwanda Nyarusiza and half Panama-Ruiz Farm-Muestra? I'll never pour out cold coffee again. My fellow kayaking friend picked up the Panama coffees last summer. One was marked faintly Muestra Fulo? on the bag. They had gone directly to the Casa Ruiz. In fact, while there he and his girlfriend bought empty property in the area. She is native to area and presently lives in Nashville. They plan to build there someday. Where they bought most of my beans at farm which used to be called La Berlina estate, founded by Segundo Diaz, and called Casa Ruiz since 1997. Sorry, couldn't help it---I'm a history buff! They brought me seven different bags of green beans and they all knock my socks off. Some are not well labelled. But the Panama Esmerelda's are all absolutely out of this world. Why does cold coffee taste so much better than hot all of a sudden? Never could stand it in an earlier life, pre-home-roast. If I couldn't taste all the subtle flavors before this cold state magnifies them. Go figure! gene |
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bvwelch |
Posted on 12/02/2009 3:33 PM
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1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 1064 Joined: December 27, 2007 |
I've read somewhere, Jim Schulman I think, that part of his taste-testing of a new coffee or a new roast profile, is to sample it cold. Personally, I always let my coffee cool down for several minutes in the cup-- otherwise, I don't seem to register much 'taste', other than -- wow, that is too hot! |
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