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Homeroasters - Home Roasting Coffee Community » ALL ABOUT ROASTERS » Gene Cafe Roaster

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New Gene Cafe thoughts
John Despres	#26 Posted on 11/26/2010 10:53 PM
Administrator Posts: 2221 Joined: January 09, 2008	Quote smatty1 wrote: Still playing with this profile. Getting some interesting results. A couple of questions: 1. Why the elimination of the drying stage? 2. How did you arrive @ 350-400 for the charge temp? 1. The warming/drying phase is not eliminated. It's just hotter, more akin to a commercial roaster. This was employed to hit yellow closer to 5 minutes than 8 or 9 minutes. 2. Experimentation to hit yellow closer to 5 minutes. Now I'm playing with yellow at 5:30, 6:00, 6:30 and varying the preheat temp and time. It's all about playing and experimenting. Not being satisfied with 2 or 3 standard profiles, I'd like 50 if that's what it takes to make the appropriate choice for a particular bean. Since no two beans are the same, why have just a few profiles to choose from? I'm just playing. and enjoying almost every cup as a result. John Edited by John Despres on 11/30/2010 7:35 PM Respect the bean. John Despres Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers.
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smatty1	#27 Posted on 11/27/2010 10:29 AM
1/2 Pounder Posts: 380 Joined: November 08, 2008	Quote John Despres wrote: Quote smatty1 wrote: Still playing with this profile. Getting some interesting results. A couple of questions: 1. Why the elimination of the drying stage? 2. How did you arrive @ 350-400 for the charge temp? 1. The warming/drying phase is not eliminated. It's just hotter, more akin to a commercial roaster. This was employed to hit yellow closer to 5 minutes that 8 or 9 minutes. 2. Experimentation to hit yellow closer to 5 minutes. Now I'm playing with yellow at 5:30, 6:00, 6:30 and varying the preheat temp and time. It's all about playing and experimenting. Not being satisfied with 2 or 3 standard profiles, I'd like 50 if that's what it takes to make the appropriate choice for a particular bean. Since no two beans are the same, why have just a few profiles to choose from? I'm just playing. and enjoying almost every cup as a result. John I am learning much, sinsei! Keep em coming!:)
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Marshall_S	#28 Posted on 11/30/2010 2:30 PM
Newbie Posts: 46 Joined: March 21, 2009	I'm continuing to get some terrific roasts with this profile (preheat to 400, set temp to 465, drop to 440 to EOR). I'm getting about 3 1/2 minutes between first crack and EOR and the results are a very nice City+ roast. I'm wondering which phase is mainly responsible for such a sweet roast without any hint of burnt/bitterness? In other words, holding the set temp down to 465 (as opposed to 480) or the post first crack temp to 440? I'm sure both are important but I'm wondering if one phase is more important here- Marshall Schmidt Foxboro, MA


John Despres	#29 Posted on 11/30/2010 7:35 PM
Administrator Posts: 2221 Joined: January 09, 2008	My playing has shown it can come from keeping the temp at say 465F to EOR. And that's where the divots tend to begin occurring. Or you can change your profiles, one setting at a time and see what the differences are. John Respect the bean. John Despres Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers.
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smatty1	#30 Posted on 12/04/2010 3:50 PM
1/2 Pounder Posts: 380 Joined: November 08, 2008	Quote John Despres wrote: My playing has shown it can come from keeping the temp at say 465F to EOR. And that's where the divots tend to begin occurring. Or you can change your profiles, one setting at a time and see what the differences are. John So are you tending to not drop the temp after c1? My thinking has been that shifts in temp may result in bringing out some quirky notes and a more even profile may produce a smoother more balanced cup. Thoughts? Edited by smatty1 on 12/04/2010 3:53 PM
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John Despres	#31 Posted on 12/04/2010 5:37 PM
Administrator Posts: 2221 Joined: January 09, 2008	Oh, yes, I drop every roast between the start of 1st or no more than :30 into first. Gotta slam on those brakes, to keep the roast under control. John Respect the bean. John Despres Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers.
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gene	#32 Posted on 12/05/2010 1:42 PM
1/2 Pounder Posts: 224 Joined: February 02, 2009	John:; I'm a tiny bit confused: You say "Once the drum is returned to the roaster, I set the high at 455F to 465F depending on the bean. I can't remember where I read it, but I shoot for yellow at about 5:00." I thought, once we preheat the drum and pour in the beans then we went thru a drying phase of three minutes at 400 and reset temp to aro 465 at the 3:00 mark? Sounds like you are doing now is going back to how I started out several years ago with Gene using first Eddie's advice add then yours when Eddie went to barbeque roaster. Again, I thought everyone that owned a GC was preheating the empty drum, just like they lace their shoes before going out? Then everyone diverging using their imaginations. I want to adapt to yellowing my beans as close to 5 min as possible because it makes perfect sense. Would appreciate if you could start with the ABC's of your experimentation. I think I now understand but clear the bit up from beginning to 1st crack for a very dense old man! SHB! Thanks John, you are truly my hero! gene That the only question is what we do after preheat?


John Despres	#33 Posted on 12/05/2010 9:08 PM
Administrator Posts: 2221 Joined: January 09, 2008	Gene, I'm still playing - not content with just one solution - Preheat drum for 3:00 at 300F, 350F, 400F depending on bean Add beans to drum, set at 300F, 350F, 400F depending on bean for 5:00 Bump to 455F - 465F depending on the bean at 5:00 Drop to 435F - 445F within :30 of the start of 1st EOR is determined by choice of roast degree, usually no sooner than :30 after end of 1st. Other times I may use another stage in there, bumping to 430F - 440F at 5:00 until 10:00. It's true this is similar Maestro Dove's teachings and profiles. For the moment, I'm looking back at some of the early stuff I was taught and mixing it up a bit. I'm sorry it was bit confusing. Does this help? John Respect the bean. John Despres Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers.
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gene	#34 Posted on 12/06/2010 10:15 AM
1/2 Pounder Posts: 224 Joined: February 02, 2009	Great explanation. You da man John! Still at the very top of my personal pedestal! gene


RichC	#35 Posted on 12/06/2010 11:31 AM
Newbie Posts: 12 Joined: February 17, 2010	Quote John Despres wrote: Gene, I'm still playing - not content with just one solution - Preheat drum for 3:00 at 300F, 350F, 400F depending on bean Add beans to drum, set at 300F, 350F, 400F depending on bean for 5:00 Bump to 455F - 465F depending on the bean at 5:00 Drop to 435F - 445F within :30 of the start of 1st EOR is determined by choice of roast degree, usually no sooner than :30 after end of 1st. Other times I may use another stage in there, bumping to 430F - 440F at 5:00 until 10:00. It's true this is similar Maestro Dove's teachings and profiles. For the moment, I'm looking back at some of the early stuff I was taught and mixing it up a bit. I'm sorry it was bit confusing. Does this help? John Interesting John, in your original post, you had stopped using the 5 minute drying phase, and instead going with a straight 455-465 right to FC + 30-45 seconds, then a drop in temp to the end of roast. The reason for this, and I agree, was to get the beans to the yellow stage more quickly. I have also (after reading this post) stopped using the drying phase in order to get the beans more heat more quickly. Can't remember where i read it, but I do remember reading that yellow stage of beans in 7+ minutes meant that there was more baking then roasting. I have seen a difference in the cup, but not for every bean. I was using a similar profile for hawaiian beans, and I find that I like this profile with the African beans (Ethiopian and Rwandan) as well. But I am not quite sold on some for the Centrals I have tried. Specifically, I am just now drinking at 48 hours post roast, El Salvador Santa Rita SHG washed bourbon variety. I also did not think the Sumatra Wahana tasted as good with this profile. I could still taste some of that "grassiness", very slightly. So, what has you moving back towards the 5 minute drying stage. Or more specifically, is there a bean or type of bean that you think benefits more from a prolonged drying stage? Gene Cafe, Kyocera Hand Grinder, Baratza Vario, Aeropress


John Despres	#36 Posted on 12/06/2010 12:33 PM
Administrator Posts: 2221 Joined: January 09, 2008	Ahhh... I am indeed playing and bouncing around a bit. I see the confusion and how I caused. I apologize. Yes, my first post here has a "built in" drying/warming stage and I failed to mention moving away from it in later posts. I found with the higher and longer preheat and then setting for my high, some roasts (softer beans) were progressing at such a rate, it was difficult to slam on the brakes at 1st crack. So, keeping the higher/longer preheat, I tried re-adding the timed warming/drying phase and it seems to be better. That said, I typically roast Ethiopias, Guats, Yemens, Sumatras and then, mostly dry processed, so my experience with softer beans is a bit limited. I'm still wandering in the desert looking for other ways. Thanks for the questions! Makes me read back a bit and think about what I'm sharing here. I just roasted a new Ethiopia with a real drying/warming stage of 5:00 and it was pretty good, but 1st came a tad later (0:45) than I like. The coffee was pretty nice, but I'm thinking this one will prefer the "built in" drying stage I talked about at the beginning of this thread. I'll find out this evening. John Respect the bean. John Despres Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers.
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Third Crack	#37 Posted on 12/18/2010 10:28 AM
1/4 Pounder Posts: 51 Joined: September 17, 2010	With the help of John and a couple others I have a great profile for hard beans that gives me consistently good results so far. My biggest problem is, as I have whined about before, is not getting more than a couple pops on 1C and therefore having trouble knowing where I'm at. Color is a difficult variable to use alone and since I vent outside, smell is not something I can gauge. It may be the type of beans I use that I don't get much action in 1C. Generally Kenya but some micro-lots from Columbia as well. If you have a large quantity of one type of bean you can get pretty good with just an exact profile but that doesn't work well jumping around to different beans. That being said I have had fairly good success dumping approx 3-4 minutes +/- from the first pop or so trying generally to get City+ to FC on most beans. I go to a high temp of 465 then put on the brakes as John puts it at the beginning of 1C (as best as I can tell). So I am looking for any suggestions if there are any given my limitations to tell when to dump when 1C is so feeble. Just for the record my hard bean profile is as follows (and don't read too much into whether my ideas are good or bad...they are just my ideas): I try to get to yellow in 7 minutes. The idea is to be about 2 minutes to get the bean surface temp from room temp to 230 then 5 minutes in the 230-340 range. So that takes me to yellow. Of course I don't know the bean temp so this is just what I'm trying for. I then want about 4-5 minutes from yellow to 1C and then about 3 minutes to dump. I preheat (hard beans) to 390 and then ramp quickly to 340 where I hold until total elapsed time of 4.5 minutes (this is the time frame where I try to control the rise from room temp to about 285....all guess work). I then start a medium power ramp up (slightly lower voltage) until yellow is reached at the 7 minute mark then go slightly over-voltage (greater than 1200 watts) up to 465 then hold until 1C. Then drop the power until ET is about 425 (still well above bean temp at start of 1C) then power back up and let the ET rise slowly to 445 at the time of dump. I know this is unnecessarily complex but its just what I do. If there is anything in this profile that might lead to "poor" 1C let me know. I have tried duplicating Johns profile but get the same 1C results so maybe I should just be satisfied that I get good results if I don't blow my dump time by too much! Thanks for all that have helped me get to this point just want to fine tune my endpoint if I can. Bob


RichC	#38 Posted on 12/18/2010 4:12 PM
Newbie Posts: 12 Joined: February 17, 2010	I have been following John's Original "New Gene Cafe Thoughts" for the last 8-10 roasts. I have stopped the 8 minute preheat to 482dgf, in favor of a 4 minute preheat (if its the 1rst roast) or a 3 minute preheat (for any roast that happens after the 1rst ) to 400dgf. My previous profiles all included dropping the beans and doing a "drying" phase of 5 minutes at 300dgf. Followed by a ramping to ~430-440dgf over the next 5 minutes. Then 465-482dgf until FC, drop by 10-15dgf for 4 minutes and end of roast. Now I dump the beans and I have been trying to reach the yellow stage by 5 minutes (as per the original post) by choosing either 455dgf or 465dgf (bean dependant). In all of the previous 8-10 roasts, I have reached the yellow stage by 5 minutes. I continue with the same temp until FC + 30-45 seconds. So if FC happens at 10:00 minutes, then at 10:45 I drop the temp to 435-440dgf. If I am looking for City to City+, I pull the roast at 2:45 to 3 minutes after the drop. FC to FC+ I pull at 3:50 to 4:15 after the drop. I have been using a Harbor Freight Infrared Thermometer to measure the Bean Temp (BT) immediately after the "E-Stop". I pull the carafe, using a pair of Ove Gloves open the lid and focus the IR Thermometer beam directly on the beans and record the BT. I then take to my cooler and in less then 2 minutes the beans are at room temp. My last roast was 224grams of PNG-Purosa. I have to tell you this was the first roast that the new profile was not as good as the profile I was previously using. The flavor of the PNG on the previous profile was really developed, very distinct chocolate, buttery and a long aftertaste. I was usually pulling the PNG in my previous roast profile just as SC was on the verge, or a snap or two into SC. I just started using the BT reading in the last month, so I do not have any BT from my previous roast. However, this roast with the new profile was pulled just at the verge of SC with a BT of 436dgf. The roast colors are similar, and what I expect, but the flavors is lacking. I guess this bean benefits from the extra drying and ramping that my previous profile utilized. Gene Cafe, Kyocera Hand Grinder, Baratza Vario, Aeropress


John Despres	#39 Posted on 12/18/2010 5:22 PM
Administrator Posts: 2221 Joined: January 09, 2008	Great, Rich! And that really is the key! Your taste buds. I'm just sharing what I do as, well, what I'm playing with at the moment. It's not meant to be your final answer, but rather (I hope) a step in helping others find what works for them. As far as I'm concerned, even a bad roast is a success in that it too serves a purpose. Then I try something else. I don't roast much PNG, so I can't even come close to offering up an idea. But you're close enough, you'll find a solution, and it may very well be the profile you mentioned. Keep playing and trying new things. And have fun. John Respect the bean. John Despres Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers.
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gene	#40 Posted on 12/18/2010 11:46 PM
1/2 Pounder Posts: 224 Joined: February 02, 2009	Rich- I have entertained the thought of an infrared thermometer but am scared the extra few seconds needed to record temp would result in too much heat stress on the element so have passed it up. It is good to hear about your using it. Just curious how effective it would be. Another thing is I'm presently venting outside. Hard to see smoke. Have noticed bean will smoke around 15 to 30 seconds before it cracks. That has helped me this Fall to stay away from second crack and to be more prepared for first. I log every minute of every roasting cycle. Trying to find room on my form for smoke. Just wonder if any of you use this fact to control your roasts? When it comes to roasting I plagiarize as much as possible. ha And before I try anything new have to have feedback from someone that has tried it on Home R[img][/img][img][/img]oasters dot org. Thats why I stay so tuned to what John is up to. Hey, it really is fun! gene


hazbean	#41 Posted on 12/19/2010 12:22 AM
Newbie Posts: 46 Joined: August 08, 2009	There has been a lot of useful information in this thread, and I've been following it with interest and using some ideas to try to fine tune my own profiles. As I mentioned in another thread, I've been using a dimmer (similar in behaviour to rreusch's variac control) since January and getting the feel of it by mostly ad hoc means for most of that time. During that time I sort of gave up my manual logging because it was too distracting to fiddle the controls and also write things down. However now that I have a pretty good idea of the basic parameters I wanted to start some logging again to try to understand some of the finer points. So I set up some OCR software from the UK and starting making logs from videos of the GC readout (details in a Picasa album here: http://tinyurl.co...). I've now logged a few roasts and collected the logs (with notes) here: http://tinyurl.co.... The first of these shows what has been pretty much my standard SHB profile for a while now: 15 min preheat at 1100W; apply full power (1150W) until near 1C; reduce power to about 470W; stop approx four minutes after start of 1C. In this case, 1C was about 9:00 and I stopped at 13:45. It took me quite a bit of experimentation to arrive at the figure of 470W. I wanted a power level that would develop (not stall) the roast, and get close to but not into 2C in 4 to 4.5 minutes (i.e. I don't want to hear any snaps at all). While I was doing this I ignored the temperature readout altogether, just went by colour and smell (mostly the latter). After much trial and error, I found 470W to be a critical level -- a bit lower, temp drops off quickly and the roast stalls/bakes, a bit higher and 2C arrives well within four minutes. As it turns out (and as can be seen from the log), this corresponds to stabilizing the temperature in the final phase at about 225C (437F). Nicely in agreement with the words of wisdom in this thread! For log no 3, I tried to directly replicate with my dimmer control one of the profiles in this thread (post #8 my smatty1), which looked suitable for the Colombian CoE I had. This worked very well (I've included cupping notes). Most of the other logs are to do with a current experiment in pre-blending. This involves fiddling with an explicit lower temp (around 130C) "de-moisturing" phase before the major ramp to 1C, and different power levels in that ramp. The jury is still out on those. Another is an experiment at light roast Kenya -- I tried a "straight through" higher power profile in order to finish sooner after 1C. Interesting cupping but needs more work. Re the posts above. Bob, IME some beans do have a quieter 1C; I check onset by smell but you can't do that! I'm now using the large chaff collector and find that by listening very close to the outlet there are sort of resonant pops in the collector when 1C starts. If I think I've missed it, I go by darker colour, chaff and change in appearance of the beans (hard to describe), and aim for about 3:30 after that (stopping quickly on any sign of 2C starting earlier than I want). Re PNG: I regard these as "island beans" and roast a bit more gently (more so by keeping max temp lower, but also some power reduction in the ramp to 1C). I haven't roasted any as SO recently, due to experimenting with the preblends (most of which have some PNG in them). Of the logs that I've put up, #6 would be closest to what I would try first. Looking back over my older notes, the last SO PNG I can find is some Sihereni about a year ago (pre-dimmer), for which I attempted a lighter roast thus (after my standard preheat at max temp for 10 mins): 145C for 2 mins; 180C for 2 mins; 250C until 1C (max was 235C); 222C for four minutes to finish. 1C came at 11:15 and finish at 15:30. My notes say that this was exc in Chemex. The profile was an experiment, I don't usually have a "step" in the ramp to 1C, and 222C is very much on the low side for a final setpoint. It did seem to work, but I didn't persist with this sort of profile (but that was the last of my Sihereni so I didn't have PNG around for a few months after that, and by then I was preoccupied with other things). Have to agree with John that the tastebuds are the ultimate decider, that's why I'm finally starting to keep tasting notes! Edited by hazbean on 12/19/2010 12:24 AM


RichC	#42 Posted on 12/19/2010 10:28 AM
Newbie Posts: 12 Joined: February 17, 2010	Quote gene wrote: Rich- I have entertained the thought of an infrared thermometer but am scared the extra few seconds needed to record temp would result in too much heat stress on the element so have passed it up. It is good to hear about your using it. Just curious how effective it would be. Another thing is I'm presently venting outside. Hard to see smoke. Have noticed bean will smoke around 15 to 30 seconds before it cracks. That has helped me this Fall to stay away from second crack and to be more prepared for first. I log every minute of every roasting cycle. Trying to find room on my form for smoke. Just wonder if any of you use this fact to control your roasts? When it comes to roasting I plagiarize as much as possible. ha And before I try anything new have to have feedback from someone that has tried it on Home R[img][/img][img][/img]oasters dot org. Thats why I stay so tuned to what John is up to. Hey, it really is fun! gene As for the Infrared Thermometer, my process did not change when I started to take those readings. Before the IR, at the End Of Roast (EOR), I would take carafe out and empty the beans into the cooler, replace carafe back into Gene. Turn Gene off, then back on, start the Gene and after the Gene started, immediately press the Temp button and start the cooling process. My updated process WITH the IR is identical with the exception that as I pull the carafe at the EOR, I open the lid and point the beam of the IR directly onto the beans, record the temperature, THEN take carafe out and empty the beans into the cooler. This change adds only seconds to my previous process. I understand that this Bean Temperature (BT) reading may not be as accurate as having a probe in the roasting vessel, but it does give me a means by which I can compare roasts, and accurately predict times and roast levels for future roasts. By keeping variables the same (type of beans, ambient house temp, weight of beans, preheat time/temp, ramp time/temp, finish time/temp) I can accurately reproduce a roast that I liked. By using the BT, I can tell almost immediately if I have nailed the roast level I wanted. If I need to change roast levels, from City to say Full City plus, The BT gives me another way of determining if I have reached that level. I record all of this info in my Excel roasting spreadsheet. I include temps at 30 sec intervals until the desired temp has been reached. I include visual data, when a beans turns yellow/tan/cinnamon. I also record FC, SC (if any), variac reading, EOR time, BT at completion time Temp at 2 minutes after cooling, The spreadsheet is also used to keep and inventory of green beans and when the last roast of any bean was done. I always go back and read my roasting notes for a given bean prior to roasting the bean again to see what changes I might need to make. Sorry for rambling on.... Gene Cafe, Kyocera Hand Grinder, Baratza Vario, Aeropress

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