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Burner assembly on Probat LG-3 -> input much appriciated!
broederen
Hi Guys!

I'm currently in the process of restoring a Probat LG-3. I have posted some pictures on flickr -> group -> LG-3.

The mechanics are ok. Just the challenge of the burner assembly is the last hurdle to take to get the platform ready!.

Question is what would be the best solution? Any suggestions?
What I do not understand yet is the capacity requirement and the direct and indirect heat transfer requirements to have a good control about the roasting progress. I work at this moment with http://www.alke.nl/to get the basic infrastructure right (natural gas, and all the safety precautions like auto shut off, automatic ignition) the big issue is the burner configuration itself. I post all the details on flickr.

You're comments are highly appriciated!

Cheers,

Broederen
 
Dan
The Flickr URL is http://www.flickr...obat_lg_3/

From the photos is appears that the roaster is electrically heated. That's one heavy duty electric heater. Some on this group will drool when they see it!

http://www.flickr...761295555/

Do you want help with converting it to gas?
Edited by Dan on 02/18/2012 7:56 AM
 
allenb
For those who haven't seen Broederen's first post in a different thread,

Broederen wrote:

I'm new to roasting. I was lucky to purchase a Probat LG-3 (estimated 1938-40). I'm currently in the process of renovating and updating. Originaly a LG-3, rebuilt to electrical (LE-3) and will now be restored as a LG-3. I'm executing the job myself and still in the initialising phase regarding the gas heating system.

Located in Holland.


So, the roaster, from Probat was gas fired (LG-3), retrofitted to electric later (LE-3) and you want to take it back to gas.

Question: It looks like from the link (Alke) that your considering going gas fired radiant to drum (similar to Diedrich) instead of the original under-drum open flame burner. Is there a specific reason why the desire to go radiant?
Also, have you contacted Probat to get details about the LG-3's original burner layout and specs? If they can provide this it would save a lot of BTU calculations and hardware design/layout work if you were ok with the traditional open flame burner. With help you could put together a similar burner system but with up to date valves and safeties and install a modulating or pulsed burner control. In addition it is important to get as much information as possible on what changes were made to the roaster body when the change to electric was made. Combustion airflow pathways were most likely closed off to avoid heat loss with the electric setup. There is no advantage to going radiant to drum versus open flame except for a slight fuel efficiency advantage and with a roaster this small I doubt you would notice the difference.

Keep the posts coming,

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
broederen
Hi Allen,

1. The main configuration was electrical and gas heating possibility. The Probat was designed to have both in place.I have found one LG-3 who was equipped with both.
2. I have posted burner configurations from two different LG-3's . They run on propane!
3. The BTU from the system from ALKE can be adjusted by using compressed air technology with the combustion of natural gas
4. Probat has no documentation of the original LG-3 configuration.
5. Unfortunately there is not enough space (8 cm) space between the 'floorspace' and the drum to put a burner under the drum (in the middle). Or do you have something in mind?

Cheers,

Broederen
 
allenb

Quote

broederen wrote:
Hi Allen,

1. The main configuration was electrical and gas heating possibility. The Probat was designed to have both in place.I have found one LG-3 who was equipped with both.

2. I have posted burner configurations from two different LG-3's . They run on propane!
Where can we view the burner configs?

3. The BTU from the system from ALKE can be adjusted by using compressed air technology with the combustion of natural gas

4. Probat has no documentation of the original LG-3 configuration.

5. Unfortunately there is not enough space (8 cm) space between the 'floorspace' and the drum to put a burner under the drum (in the middle). Or do you have something in mind?
Nothing in mind, Probat usually located their burner jets protruding through a rectangular opening within the floor of the main roasting chamber (off to one side on newer models). I would not expect them to have located the entire burner assembly between floor and drum but I could be wrong.


Cheers,

Broederen

1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
broederen
Hi Allen,

I posted the pictures on flickr

Cheers,

Broederen
Kees van der Westen: Speedster + VST ,
Mini Mazzer B,
Probat LG-3 (in restauration)
 
valerian
Hi,

I as contacted via email by Allen, but it turns out I was already in mail communication with broederen. BTW I looked at the pics on flickr and you did an amazing job!
I some pics of the gas setup. I added them to the Probat LG3 Flickr group.

http://www.flickr...obat_lg_3/

Also here is a video of my dad turning it on. The Roaster is starting around 1st min.

http://youtu.be/I...

I plan to move the roaster to California once my dad retires. I would like to renovate it and I am thinking to put in burners from Giesen, or similar highly responsive system.. I did not do any research yet.

Also I wonder how can we improve the exhaust and the chaff collection/ airflow.
 
yamhill
Thanks for the video link. This is off topic, but are you familiar with the pliers test technique the roaster is using? He first uses it just before the 2:00 mark and then a couple of times before finishing the roast.

John
 
allenb

Quote

broederen wrote:
Hi Allen,

I posted the pictures on flickr

Cheers,

Broederen


I'm having trouble finding the photos you posted showing the burner configurations. I see valerian's but not yours. Can you post a link so I go to the right spot?

To make a link clickable hit the 5th button from the left below the post box (makes URL clickable) and paste the url in between the two sets of brackets [ ].

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
allenb

Quote

valerian wrote:
Hi,

I as contacted via email by Allen, but it turns out I was already in mail communication with broederen. BTW I looked at the pics on flickr and you did an amazing job!
I some pics of the gas setup. I added them to the Probat LG3 Flickr group.

http://www.flickr...obat_lg_3/

Also here is a video of my dad turning it on. The Roaster is starting around 1st min.

http://youtu.be/I...

I plan to move the roaster to California once my dad retires. I would like to renovate it and I am thinking to put in burners from Giesen, or similar highly responsive system.. I did not do any research yet.

Also I wonder how can we improve the exhaust and the chaff collection/ airflow.


Wow, you don't waste any time. Thanks for jumping in with the photos and video link of your Dads roaster. Makes me want to get one of these roasters but I'm hearing they're very rare.

As I said in my email to you we're trying to lend a hand with broederen's refurb of his LG-3 to gas and it looks like Probat is not much help since there weren't many of these produced.

It looks like the burner from your photo on Flickr is just a standard drilled pipe burner without jets so should be fairly simple to replicate if he can find out hole diameter, number of holes and gas orifice size. This is assuming he wants to stay with original type of burner. it sounds like you two have already been in touch with each other (small world).


Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
broederen
Hi,

I have been in direct close contact with Giessen (approx 30 minutes drive from my hometown). Giessen has overhauled the LG-3 mechanicly (done an excellent job!). We were planning to put in their standard heating systen but that did not materialise at this stage because of headspace issues (Giessen system would be my preference). So I went exploring 'old school' with Alke (reputable company regarding these matters, have a history in the baking industry) and information from other LG-3 systems (none have a 'modern' system). Second option will be to adapt the Giessen system and build it in myself.

The process air circulation will be 'helped' from outside with a VLT controlled fan (including cyclone) (see pictures, need to be renovated, job will be done in next weeks). I've found the cyclone thorugh this forum but postal services in Holland did a bad job. Now the cyclone will be resend again to me. So I have than a better airflow control (might even take out the 'original' fan from the LG-3)

Because I stripped the machine myself and saw the configurations I now start to understand a little more about the requirements and possibilities.

The challenge is to create a good roast control platform. I have not dived yet into the 'bean' and understand in detail the process influences on the end result.

Next stage will be process monitoring and in future if possible some specific automatic controls.

Cheers,

Broederen
Kees van der Westen: Speedster + VST ,
Mini Mazzer B,
Probat LG-3 (in restauration)
 
allenb
I looked at the offerings at Alke http://www.alke.n...pment.html
The Alketherm MK or GPC look like they would allow control from any control source you end up using, whether computer or ramp-soak pid controller. The MK is for propane only if I'm reading correctly.

If their burner will fit in the space under the drum this might be the way to go and especially if they can package it with pilot and safety systems.

Do you already know the BTU requirements of the roaster?

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
valerian
HI,

I am curious about your cyclon. The original "fan" is a joke :). The problem is that the chaff collects in the tubes and creates "nests".

Yes, the original burner is just a simple pipe burner. If you want something like that you can look at turkish roasters. They have similar systems.

I have seen the burners from Giesen and I fall in love with them :) There must be a way to put them into this probat. They are flat ribbon burners. As for gas control I might use the same system what we had on a Probat L5 in the Boot Coffee Lab in Mill Valley. The roaster was sold, but I will try to find pics of the gas control setup.

I do not plan to do any automatic features on mine, only think I want is to be able to monitor the exhaust and the bean temperature. But I can do that through thermocouple temperature meters or through PIDs. Then I can connect my laptop and record the roast profiles via Typica or similar free software.
Huky 500, Loring Falcon, Probat LG3, Garanti 5kg, Garanti 15kg, Probat UG22
 
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