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 Post-Roast Rest
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| Right Lane |
Posted on 07/14/2012 7:49 PM
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 Newbie  Posts: 5 Joined: June 17, 2012 |
I found something on the 'net today that came as news to me and I'm wondering what the thinking is here. The party claims that s/he lets the fresh roasted beans sit in a coverless container - let's say its a jar - for 24-hours after roast. At 24-hours s/he then bags the beans in mylar with a one-way valve with all the air squeezed out. I've allowed my beans to cool so that they can be handled and then I pop them into mylar with the one-way valve. Is one of these 'the right way'? Thanks ... RL |
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| ginny |
Posted on 07/14/2012 9:25 PM
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 Founder  Posts: 3476 Joined: October 24, 2005 |
good post... RL, there is no right or wrong way to rest your beans. I would suggest you try multiple ways. each bean is totally different as well as your taste buds. there is a thread her someplace concerning this topic. maybe one of the others can remember where it is... good luck, ginny  |
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| ciel-007 |
Posted on 07/14/2012 9:58 PM
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 1 1/2 Pounder  Posts: 651 Joined: April 03, 2012 |
Both methods will allow the fresh beans to de-gas over time. It's unlikely that your taste buds could tell the difference between them in a blind test.
Ciel... seeking Heaven in my cup with ................................................................................................................. EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLK?NIG Vario - GeneCafe - RAF-1 Extreme (Modified B-2 HOTTOP) - BellaTaiwan XJ-101
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| allenb |
Posted on 07/15/2012 9:57 AM
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 Administrator  Posts: 3779 Joined: February 23, 2010 |
A couple of primary enemies of whole bean coffee is oxygen and moisture from humid air. http://www.coffee...helf-life/ Allen 1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
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| ciel-007 |
Posted on 07/15/2012 10:00 AM
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1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 651 Joined: April 03, 2012 |
Allen, thanks for the informative link.
Ciel... seeking Heaven in my cup with ................................................................................................................. EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLK?NIG Vario - GeneCafe - RAF-1 Extreme (Modified B-2 HOTTOP) - BellaTaiwan XJ-101
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| Koffee Kosmo |
Posted on 07/15/2012 6:59 PM
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 Administrator Posts: 1620 Joined: December 31, 2008 |
I have been conducting experiments on this very subject and will re post my conclusions Over the last couple of months, mainly due to guests I have had seen a jump in roasted been usage increase This has caught me out on several occasions As a preference I like to degas newly roasted beans for approx 5 days in a Mylar bag with one way valve I have experimented to get the times down so please read on Experiment one - Leave in open air for 1 hour prior to packing in a - Mylar bag with one way valve Result - No difference Experiment two - Leave in open air for 4 hours prior to packing in a - Mylar bag with one way valve Result - the time taken for degas for a reasonable shot came down to 3 days of degas time Experiment three - (and is currently ongoing now as I post and will conclude when the beans are all consumed) Leave in open air for 24 hours prior to packing in a - Mylar bag with one way valve Result - Coffee was consumed in 1 day after packing in bag However it lacked [1] Body [2] Crema [3] some dominant flavours I have also found that the beans needed an ever finer grind for espresso adjusted daily finer and finer to stop water like pours Adding to that I have observed no Crema at the spouts of the PF but a thin layer in the cup After a couple more days the coffee is tasting more like a bad cafe coffee Conclusion - Correct storage and rest time is very very important and should not be under estimated KK I home roast and I like it. Designer of the KKTO
Roaster Build information https://homeroast...ad_id=1142 https://docs.goog...lide=id.i0 Blog - http://koffeekosm...gspot.com/ Bezzera Strega, Mazzer Robur Grinder, Pullman Tamper Convex, (KKTO) Turbo Oven Home Roaster. |
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| yamhill |
Posted on 07/17/2012 2:55 PM
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 1/4 Pounder  Posts: 111 Joined: December 18, 2009 |
I read somewhere (and I thought it was here, but I can't find it) that the roast profile effects the amount of rest needed. As I remember, the comment was that a longer drying portion of the profile would decrease the need for rest. I ran some casual experiments with extended drying time on some beans that I'm familiar with, and it seemed to help. I need some more data points before I'm convinced. What do you all think? How does the roast profile play into the amount of post-roast rest? Also, if open rest of beans is beneficial, would open rest of ground coffee accomplish the same thing? John |
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| John Despres |
Posted on 07/17/2012 4:32 PM
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 Administrator Posts: 2221 Joined: January 09, 2008 |
There's an informative article by Willem Boot in the March/April 2009 issue of "Roast Magazine" about rest and staling. It's a lot of science with a graph or two, but what it comes down to is the quality of coffee you want in your cup... Taste the coffee as it rests and keep notes. Your tipping point from "tastes good" to "tastes like poo-poo" may be different from another tasters. One interesting point mentioned is that roasted coffee does not really start de-gassing until about three hours after roasting. Another point addresses John's question of roasting profiles. Darker roasted coffee has a softer, weaker cell structure and will release CO2 quicker than lighter roasts. John Respect the bean.
John Despres Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers. |
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| John Despres |
Posted on 07/17/2012 6:08 PM
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Administrator Posts: 2221 Joined: January 09, 2008 |
Forgot to mention - Regarding John's final question. The article says ground coffees de-gas much, much faster than whole beans. Times are measured in hours instead of days - In the chart provided, whole beans are fully stale in 2400 hours while drip grind coffee is fully stale in 1000 hours. Fine espresso ground coffee is stale in less than 400 hours. Also note the article is written for shops that sell "fresh roasted" coffee, not for us with more discerning tastes. I think we may tend to more particular demands than the average coffee shop customer. John Respect the bean.
John Despres Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers. |
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| yamhill |
Posted on 07/17/2012 10:20 PM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 111 Joined: December 18, 2009 |
John, Thanks for the details and the pointer to the article. I hate to think what "fully stale" means - let alone half stale. I'm laughing to myself about the notion of "fully stale". It must mean that it can't get any worse. That sounds truly bad. I like your comment about the tipping point. I wonder how folks here compare to the population at large. In more practical terms, say I finish a roast, pretty much immediately grind enough for a couple double shots, put it in a plastic bag, and extract it the next morning, 8-10 hours later. Per the rough numbers, seems like it could give a reasonable preview to the effect of a few days rest for the batch. John |
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| John Despres |
Posted on 07/18/2012 5:27 AM
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Administrator Posts: 2221 Joined: January 09, 2008 |
I think you'll be disappointed in the pre-ground coffee versus brewing freshly ground in your espresso. A lot of volatile aromatics are released the moment coffee is ground and the sooner you get them into your brew, the better, as they will continue to be released over time. Saving those aromatics in a plastic bag will not put them in your portafilter, though. They will smell awesome when you open the bag, though, I'm sure. It's true the coffee will de-gas quicker, but I think you may be wasting your roasting efforts. However, it's worth a try and I hope you'll let us know. Go ahead and pre-grind, storing in a plastic bag. The next morning, brew a shot of the pre-ground as well as a shot of fresh ground to compare. There are some who say espresso needs to be brewed within 15 seconds of grinding for optimum flavor. Personally, I can't tell the difference between 15 seconds and a few minutes, but I'm working on it. I'll bet 8-10 hours may make a difference. Degassing and flavor development rest are different. Both occur at the same time, but the flavors of the over 1000 substances and compounds (800 or so have been identified by name) will continue to change and develop. A ten day rested Yemen (a personal favorite) makes a killer shot, while a 2 day rest affords a rather nasty, sharp, acidic brew with no bottom notes to speak of. There is precious little known and written about what exactly goes on as a coffee rests. Roasting activates the myriad of bits in the bean and it continues beyond the confines of the roaster. It's sort of like that chilli or stew you made over the weekend that tastes so much better a couple days later. As to how we compare to regular folk, well, we are superior. John Respect the bean.
John Despres Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers. |
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| ginny |
Posted on 07/18/2012 9:24 AM
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Founder Posts: 3476 Joined: October 24, 2005 |
Never pre grind your espresso or any other beans for that matter; John is correct that you ar wasting a lot of your efforts and tasting coffee that is not really fresh. ginny  |
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| yamhill |
Posted on 07/18/2012 2:34 PM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 111 Joined: December 18, 2009 |
I always grind immediately before espresso extraction or any other type of coffee preparation. That being said, I've had some shocking taste and brewing experiences using coffee without enough rest. I like quick feedback and I would value a shortcut to understand the post-rest taste. I've never tried packaged ground espresso - at least not at home and not on purpose, but I might add a night before grind test to my list of experiments. How do you all tell what direction the flavors will take following rest? Do you have some rules of thumb that let you taste a pre-rest roast and know how it will taste later? Also, can you tell pre-rest how much rest is needed - without having already gone through the cycle with the same beans? John |
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| Koffee Kosmo |
Posted on 07/19/2012 3:21 AM
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Administrator Posts: 1620 Joined: December 31, 2008 |
Most problems in my experience noted in my post above is - Humidity related Beans love to suck/absorb humidity up It changes everything KK I home roast and I like it. Designer of the KKTO
Roaster Build information https://homeroast...ad_id=1142 https://docs.goog...lide=id.i0 Blog - http://koffeekosm...gspot.com/ Bezzera Strega, Mazzer Robur Grinder, Pullman Tamper Convex, (KKTO) Turbo Oven Home Roaster. |
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| John Despres |
Posted on 07/19/2012 7:27 AM
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Administrator Posts: 2221 Joined: January 09, 2008 |
Quote yamhill wrote: I always grind immediately before espresso extraction or any other type of coffee preparation. That being said, I've had some shocking taste and brewing experiences using coffee without enough rest. I like quick feedback and I would value a shortcut to understand the post-rest taste. I've never tried packaged ground espresso - at least not at home and not on purpose, but I might add a night before grind test to my list of experiments. How do you all tell what direction the flavors will take following rest? Do you have some rules of thumb that let you taste a pre-rest roast and know how it will taste later? Also, can you tell pre-rest how much rest is needed - without having already gone through the cycle with the same beans? John Sorry, John, I have no skills tasting a freshly roasted coffee and forecasting what it will taste like in several days. Thom Owen at Sweet Maria's is able to do so with freshly roasted samples. If you buy your coffee from him, there are notes for each green that give indication of what they will taste like. Studying those will help. Whenever I buy from him, I print his note sheet to keep with the coffee. JD Respect the bean.
John Despres Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers. |
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| yamhill |
Posted on 07/19/2012 1:39 PM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 111 Joined: December 18, 2009 |
Quote John Despres wrote: Sorry, John, I have no skills tasting a freshly roasted coffee and forecasting what it will taste like in several days. Thom Owen at Sweet Maria's is able to do so with freshly roasted samples. If you buy your coffee from him, there are notes for each green that give indication of what they will taste like. Studying those will help. Whenever I buy from him, I print his note sheet to keep with the coffee. JD I like his notes too. I've watched many of his videos and read a bunch of his stuff, but I haven't decoded the rest effect prediction logic. John |
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| durgaprasadzone |
Posted on 03/02/2013 1:14 AM
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 Newbie Posts: 1 Joined: February 21, 2013 |
Thanks for sharing information. Actually I had also the same question in mind for a long time anyways you started this thread & I am so happy. |
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