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Enhancing My HotTop (5 of 5) ? Advanced Modifications
Barrie
Fern,
I have posted my experience with my new variac, KAW, and a 2BK HT with about 500 roasts on it, and have reported
1. That with the voltage adjusted to 120 the KAW indicates 740 watts. Michael says that for some years they have been using elements rated at 740w, not the 750 stated on the website that he says is in error.
2. Small changes in voltage produce large changes in wattage.
3. My line voltage is typically about 118-120, and the wattage during the HT preheat phase is typically ~711. To increase it to 740 I need to increase the voltage to 120 or a little above. On the other hand, to handle large loads with a workable RoR I need to increase the wattage away above the rated level. I have already posted a question to Miroslav, who does this regularly, as to what the effect might be on the element? So I would add to the questions arising from your own experience what effect the prior use of elements regularly used above their rated max. wattage level might be on performance?
Edited by Barrie on 05/23/2014 7:35 PM
Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
 
smico

Quote

ciel-007 wrote:
-The manufacturer also claimed:
" not sensitive to voltage, no variac needed ".


Ciel,
I still think that their claim is correct, but only if you never use 100% power. See my explanation from an old GCBC post below...


Quote

smico wrote back in 2012:


My 2 cents on the voltage variation and need for variac with HT...

I bet that HT implemented constant power to the heaters. They can not increase voltage, but instead, as the voltage drops few volts, they add few more cycles to go through to the heater to increase effective current, and keep power constant at chosen power level.
For example, if you are at 90 power level 54 out of 60 cycles are let through to the heater. If voltage drops 5 percent to 114 V, controller will let 5 percent more cycles: 57 cycles to go through to the heater to compensate for voltage drop.
Of course, this does not work at 100 percent power level as there are no spare cycles, and only variac will help there.

I roast small batches and never use full power, so my roasts are not very dependent on voltage. My voltage swings from 113 to 119 and I have killawatt, but I don't look at it any longer.

Having said that I will get variac for myself as I will soon have need to roast 300g +. But for smaller batches, I found no major impact of the voltage swings.

Cheers,

Miroslav

Hottop B2 + HTC, Cremina 83, OE Pharos, Brewtus IIIR, Baratza Vario
 
ciel-007

Quote

smico wrote:

... as the voltage drops few volts, they add few more cycles to go through to the heater to increase effective current, and keep power constant at chosen power level.



Miroslav, I'm not sure that I understand how varying cycles might affect power output in a Hottop. Can you expand on this?

Ciel
Ciel... seeking Heaven in my cup with ................................................................................................................. EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLK?NIG Vario - GeneCafe - RAF-1 Extreme (Modified B-2 HOTTOP) - BellaTaiwan XJ-101
 
smico
AC 60 Hz has 60 full cycles per second.

50% power on Hottop is achieved by blocking 30 out of 60 cycles per second.

If incoming voltage drops a bit, HT controller will let more than 30 cycles through to keep the power constant.
If incoming voltage increases, HT controller will let less then 30 cycles through to keep the power constant.

This works until you don't block any more cycles and reach 100% available power. At that point variac is your only option.

Ciel, is that clear now or I need to add some diagrams. You can look up zero-crossing power control. Another type is phase angle control.

Cheers,

Miroslav
Hottop B2 + HTC, Cremina 83, OE Pharos, Brewtus IIIR, Baratza Vario
 
ciel-007

Quote



smico wrote back in 2012:

... as the voltage drops few volts, they add few more cycles to go through to the heater to increase effective current, and keep power constant at chosen power level...

... Of course, this does not work at 100 percent power level as there are no spare cycles, and only variac will help there...




Miroslav, at your suggestion, I did some reading about "zero crossing power control". More importantly, I re-read your 2012 GCBC post.

The source of my question was the result of my mis-reading your 2012 post. In my perusal of you words, I had missed the most important phrase of all:
"this does not work at 100 percent power"

Ciel
Ciel... seeking Heaven in my cup with ................................................................................................................. EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLK?NIG Vario - GeneCafe - RAF-1 Extreme (Modified B-2 HOTTOP) - BellaTaiwan XJ-101
 
ciel-007

Quote

turtle wrote:

... last night I finished wiring in switches for the main fan and bean cooler motors as well as the temp sensor interrupt for "hot start" back to back roasts... I am sure that I will use these additional functions numerous times starting with today's roast...

i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u414/turtle-web/food/coffee/Hottop/mods1_zpsa8f467d5.jpg


Mick, congrats for a fine looking series of mods.

Is it correct to assume that you have a "B" roaster without the Emergency Eject Knob on the back? If memory serves, I don't think it's possible for you to use the " Tryer and Partial Bean Dump" feature unless that "B" model is further modified. If that's the case with your Hottop, have you considered adding a Tryer Function and Partial Bean Dump function by:
a) drilling a small hole through the Rear Cover,
b) inserting a wire (or small metal rod) through the hole, and
c) attaching wire to the ejection door arm near the Bean Ejection Solenoid?

http://homeroaste...post_40019

I have never had the opportunity to test the above mod, and am most curious about how well it works (or not). Mick, if you, or other HRO members, have attempted the " Tryer Function and Partial Bean Dump Mod" on a KN8828, KN8828D, KN8828B or KN-8828P roaster, I would encourage you to post photos of your accomplishment.

Ciel
Ciel... seeking Heaven in my cup with ................................................................................................................. EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLK?NIG Vario - GeneCafe - RAF-1 Extreme (Modified B-2 HOTTOP) - BellaTaiwan XJ-101
 
turtle

Quote

ciel-007 wrote:

Mick, congrats for a fine looking series of mods.

Is it correct to assume that you have a "B" roaster without the Emergency Eject Knob on the back? If memory serves, I don't think it's possible for you to use the " Tryer and Partial Bean Dump" feature unless that "B" model is further modified. If that's the case with your Hottop, have you considered adding a Tryer Function and Partial Bean Dump function by:
a) drilling a small hole through the Rear Cover,
b) inserting a wire (or small metal rod) through the hole, and
c) attaching wire to the ejection door arm near the Bean Ejection Solenoid?

http://homeroaste...post_40019

I have never had the opportunity to test the above mod, and am most curious about how well it works (or not). Mick, if you, or other HRO members, have attempted the " Tryer Function and Partial Bean Dump Mod" on a KN8828, KN8828D, KN8828B or KN-8828P roaster, I would encourage you to post photos of your accomplishment.

Ciel


THANK YOU for posting such compelling modifications in such detail!!!!


Yes I have an older B (standard) model but I just finished updating it with the manual bean dump upgrade. The machine still uses the button thermocouple as I feel that is acceptable as I am also trying to get my dual probe system to work which will pretty much obsolete the hottop probe for everything except too hot turn on and max temp dump functions.

i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u414/turtle-web/food/coffee/Hottop/mods/probes_inside_roasting_chamber1_zpsba5e706f.jpg

i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u414/turtle-web/food/coffee/Hottop/mods/setup1_zpse54e1e6f.jpg
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum
Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
zhensley

Quote

RAG wrote:

I added a diode just after the bean cooling fan so that I can switch the fan and bean rotor motor on without activating the main fan, but still allow the normal design function of both fans being on the same circuit for normal operation.
So now I have a switch that turns on only the bean fan and motor by grounding the yellow wire (U2p5) and the bean tray fan. Normal operation is whenever the main unit fan is off, the bean tray fan is off. I figured if doing back to back, I may want to cool beans, while not activating main chamber fan.



Thank you all for the highly informative posts. Tonight I installed the 165 barrier switch which can be seen in the picture.

I am really interested in activating the cooling fan and motor at the same time, but I do not follow the directions above. Am I right to understand that Ciel's directions just activate the motor and not the fan, and the mod above activates both? If so, RAG would you mind explaining your mod a bit more? Maybe a picture or diagram?

Thanks for the help
zhensley attached the following image:
img_1288_copy.jpg
 
ciel-007
Clarification about the "auto-FAN-man" Switch (Post #4)


Quote

zhensley wrote:

... I am really interested in activating the cooling fan and motor at the same time ... Am I right to understand that Ciel's directions just activate the motor and not the fan, and the mod above activates both? If so, RAG would you mind explaining your mod a bit more? Maybe a picture or diagram? ...


There are two cooling fans (Main Cooling Fan and Bean Cooling Fan) operating on the same circuit, and they both work at the same time. Although I have not tried RAG's fan mod, perhaps I might shed further light on the mod I proposed earlier.

When I proposed "Adding a Cooling Fan Switch", it was to achieve "Faster Cool Downs After Ejecting the Beans". In other words, the "FAN" switch shown in my photo is intended to turn the Main Cooling Fan ON (after the roaster has come to a full stop) in order to lower the temperature of the Hottop to 165F.

As it turns out, lowering the temperature of the Hottop to 165F before loading the greens for the next roast does not produce great espresso pulls. More specifically, I find that espresso flavor is enhanced considerably when I load the beans at 350F or higher. That discovery lead me to propose another mod called "Cracking the 165F Barrier".

Zhensley, if your intention is to keep the Hottop very hot (above 165F) in order to load the next batch of greens at a high temperature, then there would be no need to consider "Adding a Cooling Fan Switch"; that mod would simply work against the "Cracking the 165F Barrier" mod.

On the other hand, if the Hottop has NOT been powered down, and your intention is simply to activate the Bean Cooling Fan, then you may simply use the FAN SPEED function of the front Control Panel of the Hottop to turn both cooling Fans ON.

Ciel
ciel-007 attached the following image:
panel_with_advanced_mod_switches_2.jpg

Edited by ciel-007 on 07/25/2014 9:46 AM
Ciel... seeking Heaven in my cup with ................................................................................................................. EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLK?NIG Vario - GeneCafe - RAF-1 Extreme (Modified B-2 HOTTOP) - BellaTaiwan XJ-101
 
zhensley
Thank you for following up. My intention is to be able to turn on both the agitator and the fan in the agitating tray that cools the roasted beans, while beginning the next roast (without the main roaster fan running).

I guess I don't understand the way the circuit works. If the main roaster fan (back side of the roaster) can operate independently of the roaster in the cooling tray, can the roaster in the cooling tray not likewise be operated separate from the main roaster?

Does that make sense?
 
zhensley
I can't edit above, so I will edit here:

Quote

zhensley wrote:

Thank you for following up. My intention is to be able to turn on both the agitator and the fan in the agitating tray that cools the roasted beans, while beginning the next roast (without the main roaster fan running).

I guess I don't understand the way the circuit works. If the main roaster fan (back side of the roaster) can operate independently of the roaster in the cooling tray, can the fan in the cooling tray not likewise be operated separate from the main fan?

Does that make sense?
 
ciel-007

Quote

ciel-007 wrote:

...On the other hand, if the Hottop has NOT been powered down, and your intention is to activate the Bean Cooling Fan, then you may simply use the FAN SPEED function of the front Control Panel of the Hottop to turn both cooling Fans ON...


Quote

zhensley wrote:

... My intention is to be able to turn on both the agitator and the fan in the agitating tray that cools the roasted beans, while beginning the next roast (without the main roaster fan running)...



In order to turn ON the bean agitator at will, I recommend adding a "man-TRAY-Auto" switch (see "Manually Activating Bean Agitation in the Cooling Tray" mod).
http://homeroaste...post_40020

The fact that both cooling fans actually work together, when using the FAN SPEED function located on the front Control Panel of the Hottop, has never been detrimental for the quality of my pulls. You might consider trying a few roasts with both fans running in unison, given that would be the simplest way to proceed. However, should that yield unsatisfactory roasts, perhaps you might then consider experimenting further by introducing a diode in the Hottop's circuitry in a manner akin to RAG's mod.

Ciel
Ciel... seeking Heaven in my cup with ................................................................................................................. EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLK?NIG Vario - GeneCafe - RAF-1 Extreme (Modified B-2 HOTTOP) - BellaTaiwan XJ-101
 
IntrepidQ3

Quote

ciel-007 wrote:

Photos of the 2K Control Panels & Cables

It is likely that some of the above mods for the older B and P Hottops may not work as originally intended on the newer roasters. In order to help identify which mods might possibly require some tweaking, additional information about the 2K roasters would be appreciated.

Would it be possible for the owner of a KN-8828P-2K and the owner of a KN-8828B-2K roaster to post photos of the back of their Control Panel (including the Main Control Cable, the Chaff Tray Safety Switch Cable, and K Thermocouple Cable)?

Ciel


Here are the photos that have been requested. I have a the B-2K model. I also attached a photo of the inside of the drum just to show the difference of the HT TC from the older models that have been posted here.

I am interested in figuring out how to break the 165F barrier with the B-2K, but am hesitant due to my lack of experience with electronics. If someone would be so kind to guide me through one of Ciel's or Jim's experimental ideas (short circuit method). I would be happy to attempt to throw it together and post pictures along the way.
IntrepidQ3 attached the following image:
20140906_183901_copy.jpg
 
IntrepidQ3
Here are the other two pictures that I was having trouble attaching to my previous post.
IntrepidQ3 attached the following images:
20140907_121409_copy.jpg 20140907_134825_copy_2.jpg

Edited by IntrepidQ3 on 09/07/2014 1:16 PM
 
ginny
ask for help, what is the issue with posting???

ginny
 
ciel-007

Quote

IntrepidQ3 wrote:

Quote

ciel-007 wrote:

Photos of the 2K Control Panels & Cables
It is likely that some of the above mods for the older B and P Hottops may not work as originally intended on the newer roasters...
Would it be possible for the owner of a KN-8828P-2K and the owner of a KN-8828B-2K roaster to post photos of the back of their Control Panel (including the Main Control Cable, the Chaff Tray Safety Switch Cable, and K Thermocouple Cable)?


Here are the photos that have been requested. I have a the B-2K model.


Intrepid, thank you for posting photos of the Control Panel and Cables on your B-2K Hottop. That's much appreciated. I'm sure that they will prove helpful to some of the more adventurous owners of the newer Hottops.

Ciel
Ciel... seeking Heaven in my cup with ................................................................................................................. EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLK?NIG Vario - GeneCafe - RAF-1 Extreme (Modified B-2 HOTTOP) - BellaTaiwan XJ-101
 
ellensen
Hi!
I'm a new user on this board and new to coffee roasting.
I have bought a 2k+ hottop and am very satisfied with it. Particularly when connecting and controlling it from Artisan where most of the mentioned annoyances in this thread are solved.

For example the cooling cycle is completely disabled when controlled with artisan, enabling back to back roasts. I have read in this thread that if cooling with the back filter and bean chute cover removed there should not be any temperature build up.

Has anyone practical experience with doing back to back roasts with a hottop and found any damaging consequences to the machine?
 
turtle

Quote

ellensen wrote:

Hi!

Has anyone practical experience with doing back to back roasts with a hottop and found any damaging consequences to the machine?



Welcome to HRO welcome2

I've not damaged mine so far with back to back roasts but I am still working on it
BBQ grill
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum
Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
cobill

Quote

IntrepidQ3 wrote:

Quote

ciel-007 wrote:

Photos of the 2K Control Panels & Cables

It is likely that some of the above mods for the older B and P Hottops may not work as originally intended on the newer roasters. In order to help identify which mods might possibly require some tweaking, additional information about the 2K roasters would be appreciated.

Would it be possible for the owner of a KN-8828P-2K and the owner of a KN-8828B-2K roaster to post photos of the back of their Control Panel (including the Main Control Cable, the Chaff Tray Safety Switch Cable, and K Thermocouple Cable)?

Ciel


Here are the photos that have been requested. I have a the B-2K model. I also attached a photo of the inside of the drum just to show the difference of the HT TC from the older models that have been posted here.

I am interested in figuring out how to break the 165F barrier with the B-2K, but am hesitant due to my lack of experience with electronics. If someone would be so kind to guide me through one of Ciel's or Jim's experimental ideas (short circuit method). I would be happy to attempt to throw it together and post pictures along the way.


I just purchased the B-2K+ upgrade kit and would like to do the 165F switch mod. Has anyone completed the mod successfully and what switch did they use? Thanks,

Bill
 
ciel-007

Quote

cobill wrote:

Quote

IntrepidQ3 wrote:

Quote

ciel-007 wrote:

Photos of the 2K Control Panels & Cables

It is likely that some of the above mods for the older B and P Hottops may not work as originally intended on the newer roasters. In order to help identify which mods might possibly require some tweaking, additional information about the 2K roasters would be appreciated.

Would it be possible for the owner of a KN-8828P-2K and the owner of a KN-8828B-2K roaster to post photos of the back of their Control Panel (including the Main Control Cable, the Chaff Tray Safety Switch Cable, and K Thermocouple Cable)?

Ciel


Here are the photos that have been requested. I have a the B-2K model. I also attached a photo of the inside of the drum just to show the difference of the HT TC from the older models that have been posted here.

I am interested in figuring out how to break the 165F barrier with the B-2K, but am hesitant due to my lack of experience with electronics.


I just purchased the B-2K+ upgrade kit and would like to do the 165F switch mod. Has anyone completed the mod successfully and what switch did they use? Thanks,

Bill



Bill, have you looked at my earlier post called ?Cracking the ?165F Barrier?: A FOLLOW-UP?

https://forum.hom...post_50672

That post sheds light on the ?open circuit? vs ?short circuit methods? on the subject. We know from experience that the ?open circuit? method works very well on the older B and P Hottop models.

JimG kindly shared his expert knowledge of the newer B-2K and P-2K models. If I understand Jim correctly, he is suggesting that a momentary ?short circuit? between the two wires coming from the K probe sensor would likely have the effect you desire to crack the 165F barrier on more recent models.

Bill, if we assume that the B-2K and B-2K+ models share a similar K probe circuit, you might consider trying JimG?s ?short circuit? method to crack the 165F barrier on your roaster.

Fern
Ciel... seeking Heaven in my cup with ................................................................................................................. EXPOBAR Brewtus II - MAZZER Mini E - MAHLK?NIG Vario - GeneCafe - RAF-1 Extreme (Modified B-2 HOTTOP) - BellaTaiwan XJ-101
 
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