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Drying Phase in my Gene Cafe
Barrie

Quote

Steve Egge wrote:

Another temp experiment ... . notice the start of chaff and buy 464 there is no doubt that first crack is well underway ... so took temp reading 1 minute after hitting 460 (meaning I was still in first crack but not done)

Steve


Steve, chaff comes off before first crack, at a time interval that depends on the bean (and perhaps other things).
Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
 
Barrie

Quote

Barrie wrote:

Quote

allenb wrote:

Thanks Barrie, I think I'm finally gaining understanding of the GC with the very detailed responses you and Sean have provided. I also looked over Eddie's how to you linked to.

As you noted, the heating element assembly appears to have been designed to have a natural, paced rate of rise. I'd like to find a photo of the heater internals some day.

Allen


If I come across anything even more detailed I will let you know. Meantime, these are hard to beat for anyone new to or thinking of buying a GC:

http://www.frcndigital.com/coffee/genecafe.html

http://coffeegeek.com/reviews/accessories/genecaferoaster/EddieDove

There is a conflict as to where the authors think the temperature that is displayed is being measured! To me it makes sense that it would be at the air-entry end, but I am looking forward to hearing back from the company.


I just spoke to Tim, at Fresh Beans Inc., the US distributor. The temperature readout is from the sensor at the exit port from the container. It is not an average from the entry and exit sensors. The sensor at the entry side is for safety purposes. If it reaches an excessive heat it shuts off the heater. So, the statement in Eddie Dove's excellent review and break-down description is incorrect.
Tim also says that the heater is either ON or OFF. It has no capability of delivering variable temperatures. When it reaches the set temperature it servos ON and OFF around that endpoint.

I hope this is useful clarification and apologize for any incorrect information I passed along earlier.
Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
 
Steve Egge
ML- On the above tests the beans were added to a hot drum ... preheated to 400 degrees ...probably about 5 minutes.

I always preheat tmy drum to keep the roasts consistent if I am doing multiple batches.

My beans are still green at end of drying phase ...don't yellow up till the heat is put to them usually in my profile at about 7 minutes and then tan at 8:30 ...

Barrie ... yes ... the chaff comes off before I hear the crack. Thought the timing part would take less subjectivity out of it ... but for sure the temps were taken while first crack was going on ... could hear a few snaps as I was stirring the beans.

Steve
Santoker Rev 500, Baratza Vario-W, HG-One, Bunn Trifecta MB, AeroPress, Londinium I
 
ML
Steve, the drying phase ends when the beans are yellow, n'est-ce pas?
so if I understand you
you pre-heat the drum
then you Estop and add the beans
then you set the temp for 350* for 5 mins
then you reset (increase) the temp (on the fly) and the beans yellow at approx 7 mins
the beans yellow at 7 mins?
Is 7 mins too long to reach the yellowing stage?
 
Barrie
Mark,
There is nothing for it but to put some coffee in a cup and taste it. This foreplay can only go on for so long.Grin
Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
 
Steve Egge
ML

for me the whole idea of a drying phase is to get the beans all up temp somewhat gradually before you pour the heat to them.

the idea is not to warm them to yellowness.

IF you are trying for a lighter roast such as city or city plus and if you pour the heat to cold beans then you might get the outside of the bean nice and roasted and not totally permeate to the bean interior as your total roast time is shorter with the lighter roasts. That's why I went to a longer drying period for my lighter roasts and it seems to have solved some tasting characteristics that I associate with under roasting. So it worked for me.

If you like darker roasts like full city plus or Vienna ... then I don't think it is necessary ... YMMV.

Steve
Santoker Rev 500, Baratza Vario-W, HG-One, Bunn Trifecta MB, AeroPress, Londinium I
 
allenb
While it may appear counter intuitive, coffee likes to be pushed hard at the start of a roast and up to the low 200's F bean temp. Once there (1 1/2 to 2 minutes) it's good to back off to a point where there is a smooth curve up through yellow (around 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 minutes) and on to 1C in what ever time meets your fancy. With most commercial fluidbed and drum roasters there isn't typically any hard power changes trying to take the beans in and out of different phases of the roast. The yellow benchmark and 1C are more like passing notes of interest road signs to professional roasters.

If I were to give advice to a new Gene user it would be to experiment with going as hard as possible on start without damaging the surface of the bean and then, (if needed to keep from hitting yellow too early) to back off on the heat somewhat and then find ascending setpoints to get up to 1C in another 4 to 6 minutes.

Obviously, due to various conditions (outlet voltage, ambient temperature, batch size etc) one may not be able to move this rapidly but I would try to get as close as possible to be able to determine if this or the slower curve is to your preference.

Allen
Edited by allenb on 02/18/2013 10:09 PM
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
ML
Allen,
in paragraph one you write about reaching yellow in about five minutes

in paragraph two you write about reaching 1C in about 5 mins

did you mean in paragraph two yellow, I think you did
 
allenb

Quote

ML wrote:

Allen,
in paragraph one you write about reaching yellow in about five minutes

in paragraph two you write about reaching 1C in about 5 mins

did you mean in paragraph two yellow, I think you did


I should have written 'in another 4 to 6 minutes", 4 to 6 minutes after the yellow stage getting to first crack.

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
ML
Many Thanks, Allen

Steve - I 'm afeared that I ticked you off, earlier -- PLEASE accept my apology

Sorry about all the foreplay Barrie, I promise to get to the climax a whole lot faster in the future
 
allenb
After re-reading I can see how these time/temps are hard to follow. Here's an easier read:

low 200's F -- 1.5 to 2 min
yellow -- 4.5 to 5.5 min (total elapsed time from start of roast)
first crack -- 4 to 6 min (after yellow)

Allen
Edited by allenb on 02/18/2013 10:11 PM
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
Steve Egge

Quote

ML wrote:

Steve - I 'm afeared that I ticked you off, earlier -- PLEASE accept my apology



ML .. no idea what you are talking about ...no offense .. sorry if my reply somehow implied I was ticked ...

I'm still learning on the Gene ... this thread is great with tons of opinions ... What allenb stated in terms of putting the heat on early tugs at my instinct but is worth a try, after all that is what the Gene manual recommends :-) ... interesting stuff going on here ...

Steve
Santoker Rev 500, Baratza Vario-W, HG-One, Bunn Trifecta MB, AeroPress, Londinium I
 
Barrie

Quote

allenb wrote:

After re-reading I can see how these time/temps are hard to follow. Here's an easier read:

low 200's F -- 1.5 to 2 min
yellow -- 4.5 to 5.5 min (total elapsed time from start of roast)
first crack -- 4 to 6 min (after yellow)

Allen

Thanks for your comments, Allen. The only problem is that we have no means of knowing when the beans reach 200. We do have the opportunity to aim for yellow around 5 min and then go for the max to 1C. If by circuitous route, I do think this has been useful, and I am looking forward to making yet another adjustment.
Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
 
hazbean
Hello ML -- rest assured I didn't drill holes in my new roaster, it was well out of the warranty period when I did that!

Barrie -- hello again! What I suggested I don't think results in a slower roast. The objective was to achieve what is a sort of iconic profile in roasting circles -- three phases of approx four minutes each, to yellow, then to 1C, then to the end of the roast. My roast times with that technique were usually in the 12 to 14 minute range, which I'm happy with. The reason for four minutes in the last phase is to get suitable development, a lot of people think that too short a time here means the roast isn't quite as good as it could be (and my experiments supported that view; YMMV of course). The GC will quite happily push through to 2C in less than four minutes, so judgement is important here. Especially as I very rarely roast into 2C, so the point I'm aiming to reach in four minutes is actually somewhat before 2C. Getting it right takes practice.

Of course this isn't the only useful profile. What I suggested is just a technique to achieve the particular 3*4 profile that I found good for many beans (but not all).

Looking forward to the paean to five minutes. Or maybe it will be four ... :)

"Is 7 mins too long to reach the yellowing stage?" A very good question. I decided it was, but I think Steve has some pretty good evidence that it can work. Interesting.

Allen -- I agree with your advice to try the idea of going as hard as possible at the start (the technique I described was informed by similar thoughts). However IME it's necessary to keep the GC going flat out in order to get to 1C in that 4 to 6 minute range -- intermediate set points I found just slowed it down (although such points might be useful for a slower profile). Also I found that the "back off" point needs to be later with the GC than some other roasters (at or a little after 1C on the GC, but on my Quest I'll often back off a good minute before 1C).

Steve -- I see your thoughts are directed towards light roasts, the profile I described is best for roasts that finish say 30 seconds before 2C onwards. Just truncating this profile doesn't work (too grassy). My belief is that light roasts need more development (ie more energy input) before 1C so that the roast can finish not too long after 1C at a suitably light level, but with the total roast time still similar or maybe even longer. In other words, the area under the temp graph up to 1C needs to be greater in order to trade off some after 1C. I never really got it right with the GC, your approach looks promising. However I would make one suggestion -- that you preheat to a higher temp. IMHO this will not harm the beans -- I regularly noted the drum temp on reinserting after my preheat to max, it was usually around 165C/330F. In other words, putting the beans into an ET of around what you want for drying. Note that this starting temp is actually much less than is often used as a drop temp for other roasters.
 
Ryan
Thanks everybody for the contributions to this thread. I believe a higher understanding of the drying phase specifically to the Gene Cafe is already helping improve my roasts. I'm starting to think that tweaking this part of the roast is also helping to mitigate the less desirable qualities of decafs, but I'm still working on that.

ML, having recently gone through the newbie phase with the GC myself, I would recommend just keeping it super simple for your first couple roasts, just to become familiar with operating the roaster. I'd say just skip the pre-heat and go with a simple profile like 300?/5min then 474? till the end of roast for the first time or two. Just my opinion.
 
Barrie
FWIW, (I hope) I am attaching an image of an Excel file that includes data from 5 runs with one GC. The first is the maiden voyage with no beans and from a cold start, and the last is based on suggestions from this thread.

Of interest to me are runs 3 and 4 with the same profile but very different beans. The time/temp data is so close that the curves are superimposed on the chart!
As I am deaf, I cannot vouch for the times given for the cracks, particularly 1C.
For now, I think I will stick with the profile in run #5 for a while.
Barrie attached the following image:
gc_records.png

Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
 
allenb
I'm looking forward to hearing how these roasts cup. It would be very interesting to hear cupping results using a couple of these profiles on the same bean but unfortunately would burn through a couple of pounds of your green supply.

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
Barrie
Allen, I pulled this info from records going back over several months and do not have the cupping info. Indeed, my discrimination in this regard is so poor as not to be worth posting, I would say. My limits extend to bright, fruity, bitter, burned twig, full bodied, malt/chocolate and that is about it. I just cannot distinguish the subtleties that so many others describe. Maybe I should have started that practice a few decades ago. beach
Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
 
allenb

Quote

Barrie wrote:

Allen, I pulled this info from records going back over several months and do not have the cupping info. Indeed, my discrimination in this regard is so poor as not to be worth posting, I would say. My limits extend to bright, fruity, bitter, burned twig, full bodied, malt/chocolate and that is about it. I just cannot distinguish the subtleties that so many others describe. Maybe I should have started that practice a few decades ago. beach


Barrie, you're not alone in being "cupping challenged" I've never been able to discern 90% of those long lists of descriptors either. I was really only looking for better or worse when I referred to cup/cupping results, no descriptors needed!

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
Barrie
Allen, my best cupping scores to date have been with SM Monkey and French Roast blends, using the same profile as Roasts 3 and 4 in my graph.
Preheat/beans in/482 to 1C/451 to end.
This whole discussion has encouraged me to take one bean and do about four different profiles, trying to replicate the same starting point, then cup them all in the same session after waiting, say, 4 days. If and when I do that, I will certainly post the results. One caveat is that I will be cupping espresso.
Up until this point I have been a little foolish about this and have cupped for different beans and, occasionally, different profiles. A little more rigor will be introduced. cross fingers
Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
 
blackraptor
Hi mi profile is

Preheat at 200 celsium
5 min at 170
max temp and first crack at 232-237 degrees
lower temp about 8 degrees and cooling

I would like to ask how could i get to first crack at lower temp, like 230 degrees. Does it matter with drying phase, like lower temp or less min?
thanks
 
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