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Phase Angle Controller low cost
allenb
Anyone heard of this device for controlling your heating elements via phase angle control?

http://www.nuwave...man-1p.htm

It's a control card that mounts to an SSR of your choice via the SSR's terminal screws. It takes most inputs including a potentiometer (4-20mA, 0-10V, 0-5V, 0-135 Ohm Pot, and PWM)

Goes for $60.00 plus shipping.

I ran into it while looking for possible control options for yengibarov with his 15 kw heaters. I think going phase angle would lessen the tendency for dimming the lights every second during the on/off pulses of a standard duty cycle control output.

The nice thing about this device is it will accept most input formats including the TC4's 0-5 output or go totally manual via a 150 ohm pot.

Allen
Edited by allenb on 05/24/2013 10:30 PM
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
Lylabrown
Nice Find Allen. It's neat how it can piggyback on a cheap & readily available component. Most variable solid state controllers cost at least double that amount.
Russ
 
allenb
Yeah, that was my thought as well. For a manual operation you would only have to mount the unit to your SSR and the only other components needed to get roasting would be a 150 ohm pot and thermometer for a really barebones rig.

Looks like Nuwave manufactures the DigiQ Kamado/smoker controller for the BBQ Guru folks:

http://www.nuwave...llers.html

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
greencardigan
It looks like it also requires a 24V transformer to provide a 24V AC input.

That will add some additional cost but I haven't looked at the price of the transformer.
 
allenb

Quote

greencardigan wrote:

It looks like it also requires a 24V transformer to provide a 24V AC input.

That will add some additional cost but I haven't looked at the price of the transformer.


The 24 vac 40 mA supply can be supplied via common wall wart so should be fairly low cost for a control power source.

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
allenb
A few comments questions on the value of this device

- Can the TC4/TC4C also do phase angle output to an SSR for powering a heating element? If it can then if one builds the TC4 themselves it would be less costly than the SSRMAN-1P. and you'd get LCD readout, buttons and choice of roasting apps to boot.

- Benefits from using phase angle control versus burst fire or simple duty cycle on/off is reduced light dimming during each on/off cycle especially when powering relatively large loads.

- Benefits of using the SSRMAN-1P and 150 ohm potentiometer for control would be simplicity and ability to be up and roasting in a very short time and especially for the non-control geek who wants minimal fiddling with electronics and microcontrollers.

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
oldgearhead
If you don't need the 'soft' turn on, a regular old temperature controller with
'manual' control gives you a temperature display and a savings of $20.00.
http://www.auberi...cts_id=106
.
However, I can recall a few projects where an SSRMAN would have been very useful, to control inrush current..
..
.
No oil on my beans...
 
allenb

Quote

oldgearhead wrote:

If you don't need the 'soft' turn on, a regular old temperature controller with
'manual' control gives you a temperature display and a savings of $20.00.
http://www.auberi...cts_id=106
.
However, I can recall a few projects where an SSRMAN would have been very useful, to control inrush current..
..
.


The soft start is a nice feature but wouldn't have much use in any roasters I've built.

My particular interest in this controller is it's ability to do phase angle firing for folks with large kw loads. Yes, if the home or shop has been wired correctly with sufficiently sized conductors there shouldn't be a big issue with sagging voltages during each on/off pulse of the PID controller but I've been in many homes and buildings where switching anything over 15 amps even with proper wire size will do a major sag and brown out on each 1 second pulse which can be real annoying especially to the folks not in the shop. Phase angle control eliminates this problem.

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
greencardigan

Quote

allenb wrote:

- Can the TC4/TC4C also do phase angle output to an SSR for powering a heating element? If it can then if one builds the TC4 themselves it would be less costly than the SSRMAN-1P. and you'd get LCD readout, buttons and choice of roasting apps to boot.

Allen


Yes, I use phase control on my TC4 controlling 3.6kW of heating. This is using my aArtisanQ_PID code and Jim's zero-cross detector.
 
allenb
Hi Brad,

I forget how versatile the TC4 really is! That makes the SSRMAN-1P only valuable if one is looking for a simpler plug and play phase angle controller.

Would you mind giving a basic run down of your PID version of aArtisan (aArtisanQ_PID) as far as what it can do and how you go about saving a profile. I think there's quite a few folks out there that may like to use it but aren't quite sure what it does and how one would use it. I'm in that bunch as well.

Edit: It would be better if you did it in a new thread with aArtisanQ_PID in the title so folks can find it.

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
greencardigan
I just realised I made a slight error in my previous post. My current setup is doing phase angle control of my blower rather than the heater. But it is definitely possible to control the heater elements using phase angle control with my current set up. I'm just not sure if I could control both the heater and blower with phase control simultaneously.

Anyway I have just posted a bit of a summary about aArtisanQ_PID and how it differs from the standard aArtisan code.

http://homeroaste...ad_id=3322
 
Erichimedes
Here's something else that could work really well if you were making a fully manual roaster. It's input is 120v, so you could control both the heater and the fan and never have to incorporate a 5v power supply.

http://www.auberi...cts_id=332

$30 total once you add the 120v rheostat. If nothing else, its a good alternative to a router speed controller for heater element control.
 
allenb
I've never seen this phase angle controller before. Thanks for posting! This could be a very useful addition to our list of manual control options.

I spoke to someone at Auber Instruments today on if there were other options for input other than the variable resistor and there is not since the variable resistor is part of an RC network.

After some conversation with him on our need for a microcontroller compatible phase angle power controller for our ac fans, he said there's a chance they might offer a phase angle controller that would accept standard microcontroller and PID controller analog outputs (0-5, 0-10 vdc, pwm etc.) in the near future. He said he would email me when he knew for sure.

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
Erichimedes
Allen, that's great that you talked to them! I was really excited when I found that on their site, because it's the answer to a cheap high-amperage element control. Which I've been looking for ever since I modded my popper.

I wonder what the value of that rheostat is (in ohms)? I know you can get a digital potentiometer that's controlled by a serial input:
https://www.spark...ucts/10613
But I think finding something like that rated for 2W is unlikely.
 
allenb
That's a great idea, I had forgot about the digital pots. How difficult would the programming be for adding code to an arduino sketch, capable of running one of these be?

The variable resistor for 60 hz 120 volt setups is 160 kohm

Description 25A SSVR
Manufacture AUBER
Input rheostat 50 Hz: 470K for 220V, 60Hz: 330K for 240V, 160k for 120V
Maximum Voltage 480VAC
Current Rating 25A
Output Triac
Switching method phase cut off
Dimension 2.25 x 1.75 x 1.25 (inch) , 57 x 32 x 45 (mm)
Approval CE
Rheostat accuracy +/- 20 kohm
Rheostat power rating 2 watts
Warranty 90 days

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
rustic_roaster

Quote

Erichimedes wrote:

I wonder what the value of that rheostat is (in ohms)? I know you can get a digital potentiometer that's controlled by a serial input:
https://www.spark...ucts/10613
But I think finding something like that rated for 2W is unlikely.


Digital pots have a voltage range they will will work with, they are not exactly like a true pot.

The web page for the SSR say "The rheostat will carry the same voltage it regulates." If this is referring to the AC mains voltage then I doubt a digital pot would work.

If you wanted to control the SSR from an arduino, there are functions for controlling servos. you might be able to add a servo to the rheostat using one of these couplers.
http://www.servoc...pler_.html
 
Erichimedes
Adding the code for arduino to control a digital pot should be pretty simple. I think finding one that's rated for 120v at 2w would be the tricky part.

The servo idea would certainly work! It just seems like it's getting a little convoluted by that point. I think servo+rheostat+SSVR is just as much work as SSR+ZCD. I think maybe JimG had the right idea with the zero cross detector.

I wonder how hard it would be to come up with a stand-alone circuit that takes a PWM input and outputs 0-120v. I guess maybe that's what the board that started this conversation does :P
 
rustic_roaster
Erichimedes, I think your right about it being tricky to find a digital pot that would handle 120 directly. I did a quick search seen one that had a 30V rating and another about 15V that were identified as high voltage.

The servo thing is actually quite straight forward, you start out manually controlling the pot. Later you want automation just add a servo. The hard part may be the mechanical bracket to hold the servo and pot. The code changes are quite easy.

Below is the diff for the changes to roastloggerTC4.ino,
<< means the original file
>> means the new changed file
106c106 is the line number in the file. c is change a is add


106c106,108
< #include "basicHID.h" // standard interface
---
> #include "basicHID.h" // standard interface
> #include <Servo.h>
>
172c174,175
< PWM16 output1; // 16-bit timer for SSR output on Ot1 and Ot2
---
> //PWM16 output1; // 16-bit timer for SSR output on Ot1 and Ot2
> Servo servo_io2;
258a262
> int x;
267c271,274
< output1.Out( heater, 0 ); // update the power output on the SSR drive Ot1
---
> // output1.Out( heater, 0 ); // update the power output on the SSR drive Ot1
> x = map(heater, 0,100, 0,179);
> servo_io2.write(x);
>
349a357
> int x;
355c363,365
< output1.Out( heater, 0 );
---
> x = map(heater, 0,100, 0,179);
> servo_io2.write(x);
> // output1.Out( heater, 0 );
425,426c435,437
< output1.Setup( TIME_BASE );
< output1.Out( heater, 0 ); // heater is off by default
---
> // output1.Setup( TIME_BASE );
> // output1.Out( heater, 0 ); // heater is off by default
> servo_io2.attach(2);
 
greencardigan
I have a simple phase angle controller that can be connected to an arduino. I used it to control my blower before I switched to the TC4.

It's a basic triac phase angle controller circuit but I placed a light dependent resistor in parallel with the main control potentiometer. The light dependent resistor is then coupled to an LED which is fed a PWM signal to control its brightness and the blower speed.

The phase angle control circuit was the one that Roaster Rob uses. http://www.epanor...ml#1kw230v
 
Erichimedes
Greencardigan, those dimmer circuits seem like a good answer. I think if the 120v one was able to handle more like 2kw, that would work for my application at least. I don't know enough about electronics to take that schematic and modify it for higher wattage. It reminds me of this:
http://www.ebay.c...53fe8c5d01
But it says it's working voltage is 220. I have a 1000W, 120v version of that, and it's controlled by a 10k pot. I should check what voltages that pot is seeing. I wonder if I could control it with a digital pot.

I really like the LED and photoresistor! I'll bet that actually works really well, and like rustic-roaster's servo, it conveniently isolates the Arduino from noise from the dimmer circuit. All really cool options here, I like this thread.

I use a KBIC-120 to control the blower motor on the fluidbed I'm building. It's input is a 5k pot. I should check and see what voltages that is seeing, and see if it's possible to link it up with a digital pot and control it with the Arduino.
 
Viridian
I just wanted to mention that I've been using phase angle fired SCR's for heater control for years and the one benefit I haven't seen mentioned here is that heater elements last many times longer when you aren't switching them on/off at full load.
 
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