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Homeroasters - Home Roasting Coffee Community » ALL ABOUT ROASTERS » HotTop Roaster

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How Sweet It Is! Or Is It? Asking a B to B question.
Bearpaw	#1 Posted on 06/30/2013 2:29 PM
Newbie Posts: 21 Joined: October 01, 2012	I am roasting on a B2k, about a month into it. I cut my teeth on the Behmor and then the Gene until diagnosed with hearing loss which put me to the Hottop for better 2C auditory cues. I read with interest a Randy Glass profile aimed at getting quicker to and through first crack so that some sugars could be preserved. This quicker roast was much different than Randy's gentler profile on the hottop website. I used it once and with a 300 degree bean drop and did have some moisture condensing and dripping out of the back of the hottop. Seems like the whole 300 degree drop conversation might have been aimed at the P2k instead of the B2k.... I am comparing that with my Behmor and Gene reading and practice which always preached stretching first crack for better roasts. I seem to remember a lot of four minute targets for inception of first to inception of second in those pre-hottop days. My situation is, I am roasting 8 ounces in my B2k and seem to steadily hit second just over two minutes from beginning of first. This even using fan on 50 to 75%. Not as much sweetness as I would like in last few even with this quick progression. So my question for B2k users, have you any pointers to offer or success to report on roasting for sugar preservation or development? Are you accelerating to first or more interested in stretching first? I am prepared to do lots of experimenting, just wondering if anyone else is working on this. I roast for espresso and aeropress, so looking to preserve varietal characteristics and yet develop a balanced roast. I just re-read Willem Boot who likes three minutes of first to second roasting in his commercial settings. Gene Cafe, Behmor, Aeropress, various pourover, biggins, heirloom coffeepots, Crossland CC1 with VST 18 and 15 gram baskets. "How Good's the Coffee; How Bad's the Pie!"


Barrie	#2 Posted on 06/30/2013 5:28 PM
Pounder Posts: 504 Joined: April 10, 2012	Bp, I came to the same Hottop model from a GC, for the same reason, and am only a couple of months ahead of you with 57 batches through the machine as of today. I have a profile in Ad2 that I arrived at by trial and error, and it will pretty reliably give me 3.5 to 4 min between the starts of 1C and 2C. In essence, having learned the ways of the beast, I learned to predict when 1C would start, and so turn the heater down to 70 or 80% about 1 min before that. When 1C starts, the fan comes on to 50%. I just leave it at that, relying on the exothermic process to bail me out, as the rate of rise almost flattens at first. I am still fiddling and learning of course, but rely in particular on a couple of things. One is that, somewhere, I saw it suggested that one think of the heater as the course control and the fan as the fine. A very useful thought, I think. The second, and even more useful, is that I have a bean temp probe through the bean chute cover, a la Randy Glass, and this is hooked to Roastlogger software via a TC4 board. That software displays rate of rise (or fall) of temperature. It reminds me of my (younger) days of racing a sailboat on SF Bay, when one of the tricks when sailing into the wind was to know how far up into the wind one could come without stalling or even tacking unintentionally. There were "ticklers" suspended from the stays that gave a visual indication of direction of boat vs. wind. With the roasting process, knowing the ROR is almost like cheating. It makes it so easy to slow a roast without stalling it. (I don't think it is possible to tack it unintentionally). I am sure you will get more replies from users who really know what they are talking about, and who won't confuse you with analogies from completely different scenarios. Barrie (San Diego, CA) "So much to learn, so little time." Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).


snwcmpr	#3 Posted on 06/30/2013 8:19 PM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 925 Joined: March 03, 2011	I roast 8 oz, too. I use 100% heat until 300 BT. Then 70% heat until just before 1C, 370? BT, as 1C diminishes I drop to 50% and sometimes later even 30%. After the 50% drop, the fan sometimes goes up to 50, but the fan is at least 25% after 300. I get between 2 1/2 to 4 1/2 between 1C and 2C depending on what I want. Drop at 20:30, 300 in 4 1/2 (16:00), 1C in another 4 1/2 to 5 (11:30), eject at 9:00 or 8:00, sometimes later, depending on finish BT desired. So, yes I get control of the times between 1C and 2 C. Oh, I drop the beans in at 375 HT reading. But, I break the rules, it isn't supposed to work, but it does. It is all judged in my cup. I get flat taste if I drop before 325 HT reading. What I am trying to say is vary what you are doing, and see what works for you. Ken in NC -------------- Backwoods Roaster "I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast." As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".


ginny	#4 Posted on 07/01/2013 9:13 AM
Founder Posts: 3476 Joined: October 24, 2005	Hi Ken: rules are meant to be broken... that said I never drop my beans in before 350 and usually dump them around that time. I will be roasting later and will check the times all the way thought. as a side not, I find that my new BK2 roasts faster... ginny


Bearpaw	#5 Posted on 07/02/2013 11:00 AM
Newbie Posts: 21 Joined: October 01, 2012	Barrie and Ken, thanks for the push in the right direction. I reviewed my notes from the first dozen roasts or so and first crack virtually always began at the same temp on the Hottop... I am not reading bean temps. So I am using some Hottop temperature flags to follow your suggestions and turn down the heat in increments anticipating first. Yesterday I got the best so far out of three beans which have been problematic for me recently. I was able to slow the rate, but keep temps on track and focus on aromas sights and sounds, as Ginny advises so eloquently. On the third roast I ended at full city before 2C at 3.5 minutes after first and it was great. I will fine tune and reply with my settings as soon as I settle on what is working the best. I love this forum; y'all are so helpful! Wally Gene Cafe, Behmor, Aeropress, various pourover, biggins, heirloom coffeepots, Crossland CC1 with VST 18 and 15 gram baskets. "How Good's the Coffee; How Bad's the Pie!"


Barrie	#6 Posted on 07/02/2013 11:51 AM
Pounder Posts: 504 Joined: April 10, 2012	While we are at it, the common use of 1/4 lb. of beans is very understandable for a number of reasons but, of course, it does not provide 1/4 lb. of roasted beans. Following a suggestion eIther from here or the SM forum I have converted to using 252 gm. Depending on the bean and degree of roast, this has enough 'extra' to end up around 1/4 lb. For anyone who is thinking "Yes, but.....", 9 x 252 gm = 5 lb.! Barrie (San Diego, CA) "So much to learn, so little time." Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).


snwcmpr	#7 Posted on 07/02/2013 12:20 PM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 925 Joined: March 03, 2011	I am sorry, I use a probe and have totally forgotten how to predict using the HT temps, so I cannot help there. But, I have logs of every roast I have done, and may look at a pattern. I just never looked at HT temp as an indicator od bean condition. I know other roasters here repeat roast, called back-to-back. With a bean probe that is easy. But, I found that the HT temps were different if I didn't cool the roaster to room temp. That takes hours unless you use a fan, like a vacuum cleaner. (If you do us a vacuum cleaner, reverse the fan so it blows in. I overheated a vacuum cleaner sucking hot air into it.) It only needs to cool lower than 167 to start another batch, but the way the HT reads the wall/oven/beans as a combination reading, it is not as easily repeatable. Well, not in my experience anyway. Are you seeing that the second or third roast is different than the first, that may be what is happening. I should qualify this, I got a probe in the roaster right after I got the HT, as per Randy's instructions. Barrie did too. Ginny, I think, does not use a probe. She may have better input about reading the HT temps. Happy roasting, Ken in NC -------------- Backwoods Roaster "I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast." As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".


Bearpaw	#8 Posted on 07/02/2013 4:55 PM
Newbie Posts: 21 Joined: October 01, 2012	Ken you are right. With the Hottop temp, the machine must cool between roasts. I did three over a period of hours interspersed with honeydo's and a grandson helping me out with swim sessions in between. The second ran a bit faster but all three were manageable. The bean temp crosses the hottop b2k temp at about 300 which is one of your mileposts. Then I just judge the rate of rise to go to 70% at 340 to 350 on the hottop, then 50% 1C, 30 as it slows, etc. and I am in your ballpark. Gene Cafe, Behmor, Aeropress, various pourover, biggins, heirloom coffeepots, Crossland CC1 with VST 18 and 15 gram baskets. "How Good's the Coffee; How Bad's the Pie!"


snwcmpr	#9 Posted on 07/03/2013 7:10 AM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 925 Joined: March 03, 2011	Awesome. Nothing like a good cup-a-joe that i roasted myself. Enjoy, Ken in NC -------------- Backwoods Roaster "I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast." As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".


Bearpaw	#10 Posted on 07/03/2013 8:45 AM
Newbie Posts: 21 Joined: October 01, 2012	OF course I misspoke, Ken. 70% at 300 50% at about 350. wh Gene Cafe, Behmor, Aeropress, various pourover, biggins, heirloom coffeepots, Crossland CC1 with VST 18 and 15 gram baskets. "How Good's the Coffee; How Bad's the Pie!"


rgrosz78	#11 Posted on 07/07/2013 9:20 PM
1/4 Pounder Posts: 78 Joined: October 25, 2010	Quote snwcmpr wrote: I know other roasters here repeat roast, called back-to-back. With a bean probe that is easy. But, I found that the HT temps were different if I didn't cool the roaster to room temp. That takes hours unless you use a fan, like a vacuum cleaner. (If you do us a vacuum cleaner, reverse the fan so it blows in. I overheated a vacuum cleaner sucking hot air into it.) It only needs to cool lower than 167 to start another batch, but the way the HT reads the wall/oven/beans as a combination reading, it is not as easily repeatable. Well, not in my experience anyway. Are you seeing that the second or third roast is different than the first, that may be what is happening. I do 3-4 roasts each Saturday back-to-back. I have been able to reproduce my prior roasts pretty well. One trick that I use is a "dummy roast" to get started - before I start setting out my various coffees to roast. I start the Hottop without any beans and let it run until it turns itself off. That way the internals of the Hottop are warmed up before the first roast - so it is similar to the condition at the start of the 2nd or 3rd roast. Quote snwcmpr wrote: I should qualify this, I got a probe in the roaster right after I got the HT, as per Randy's instructions. Barrie did too. Ginny, I think, does not use a probe. She may have better input about reading the HT temps. Happy roasting, Ken in NC I rely on the front panel indicator of my Hottop B-2K. My installed thermocouples do NOT work #TC-FAIL. I record all of my roasts by hand, and I am quite happy with the results. I started out using the Behmor, and the Roaster Thing software kept track of my inventory. When I changed to the Hottop, I built an Excel spreadsheet to keep track of everything - roast results, inventory and maintenance of filters. The Excel file is over-complicated, but I represent that remark. I've attached a ZIP with the file as of 06/22. If you don't have Excel, you can still use the Excel file with Google Sheets (spreadsheet program). I was pleasantly surprised by how well that file worked after importing it into Google Sheets. rgrosz78 attached the following file: hottop_roast_logs-06-22-2013.zip [118.4kB / 610 Downloads] Life is too short to drink bad wine ... or bad coffee!
	Web

rgrosz78	#12 Posted on 07/12/2013 12:47 PM
1/4 Pounder Posts: 78 Joined: October 25, 2010	Several experienced roasters commented that my roasts are TOO SLOW. Conventional wisdom says the best results occur with about 9 minutes for 1st crack. I get pretty close with 227g of beans (1/2 pound) and a drop temperature of 300 degrees. Guess I'll tinker with my profiles a bit more. Life is too short to drink bad wine ... or bad coffee!
	Web

ginny	#13 Posted on 07/12/2013 1:41 PM
Founder Posts: 3476 Joined: October 24, 2005	what is too slow? let me read your posts and put in my 27 cents worth... every roaster, electrical system and TASTER OF THAT CUP is different. as far as I know there is no right or wrong way unless you use a skillet and burn those beans beyond charcoal... ginny


ginny	#14 Posted on 07/12/2013 1:58 PM
Founder Posts: 3476 Joined: October 24, 2005	Quote Ginny, I think, does not use a probe. She may have better input about reading the HT temps. - use a probe in my Quest M3. - have used a Hot Top from the very first one and know these machines very well. I have never had a crappy roast, some GREAT roasts but never a bad roast and I roast as a challenge each time because I am roasting for myself with these small batches. ginny


Barrie	#15 Posted on 08/06/2013 11:41 PM
Pounder Posts: 504 Joined: April 10, 2012	Quote rgrosz78 wrote: When I changed to the Hottop, I built an Excel spreadsheet to keep track of everything - roast results, inventory and maintenance of filters. The Excel file is over-complicated, but I represent that remark. I've attached a ZIP with the file as of 06/22. If you don't have Excel, you can still use the Excel file with Google Sheets (spreadsheet program). I was pleasantly surprised by how well that file worked after importing it into Google Sheets. This is a strong recommendation for the Roastmaster software, written for Apple devices. Using relational database programming, it integrates bean purchases and inventory, roasts, and cuppings in a very well-designed interface. One can plot curves during a roast with manually entered data, write notes, etc. etc. I used this on an iPad2 for all my roasts with a GC. I am not able to use Roastmaster since moving to an HT with its bean probe connected to TC4 board, and automated logging using Roast Logger software. But for the manual data input Roastmaster is very much the superior article, and I wish I could still use it. Anyone not using automated logging would benefit from taking a look at it. http://rainfrogin... Barrie (San Diego, CA) "So much to learn, so little time." Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).


boar_d_laze	#16 Posted on 08/07/2013 9:23 PM
1/4 Pounder Posts: 181 Joined: May 28, 2013	Quote rgrosz78 wrote: Several experienced roasters commented that my roasts are TOO SLOW. Conventional wisdom says the best results occur with about 9 minutes for 1st crack. I get pretty close with 227g of beans (1/2 pound) and a drop temperature of 300 degrees. Guess I'll tinker with my profiles a bit more. I'm with Ginny about the number of different variables and how difficult it is to predict what's going to work -- even if most of them line up. There's no such thing as "too slow," at least not without some context. It's all about results. For instance, if your roasts are "baked," or "flat," you may want to speed them up. But you can't put an opinion in a cup, so don't take someone's word that if you don't hit 1st by 9min you're screwed. In my experience, 15 - 16 minute roasts to Full City-ish in an HT with a slightly slowed drying phase (the period when the aromas go from grass through hay to bread) and a 3 - 4 minute interval between 1st and onset of 2dC can make for some very sweet roasts with -- depending on the bean or blend -- a good balance between bean (fruits, florals) and roaster (chocolate, nuts) artifacts. If you want even more sweetness and are willing to sacrifice a little fruit "acidy-ness" you can extend the drying phase still further and drag an FC roast out to 16 or 17 minutes -- or even more. As you said, you need to experiment. So far, in my evolution, the hardest thing to learn and the biggest rewards come from controlling the drying phase. Go gently, take good notes, isolate your variables, and don't over think it. BDL USRC 1lb Roaster, Chemex+Kone, Espro, Various FPs, Royal Siphon Vacuum, Yama Ice Drip Tower, Bunnzilla, La Cimbali M21 Casa, Ceado E92. CookFoodGood

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