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Batch size reasoning?
Barrie
Ever since I bought a GC, I have mainly been loading 252g - a habit that was continued with the HT. Both roasters can handle it, there are 9 such batches in a 5lb bag, and it would deliver approximately 1/2lb of roasted beans. Using the HT and a high loading temperature you can produce yellowing beans in 5 min. with this size of load.
Never satisfied, I have recently been looking more closely at arithmetic and results. My preferred roast end-point is somewhere between 2C and 2C plus 20 sec. So, I started playing with the numbers. Virtually all my roasts end up with a ~17% weight reduction, and to end up with half a pound of roasted beans one would need to load 283g. There is absolutely no way to justify the half-pound goal, except that this is how we usually think at the consumer level. Incidentally, there are eight of these 283g batches in a 5lb bag!
So, is it or is it not possible to produce a good roast for espresso when loading a 283g batch in an HT? Reading through the results of a search here, most users suggest that this might produce a flat-tasting bean. Ciel-700 is an exception and says that with a perhaps unusually-high loading temperature, one can do a first-class job, or words to that effect. In the end I will have to try various loading temeratures with the 283g load, but I would love to hear others' thoughts and experiences. For my part I will report back when I have some experience at this batch-size and loading-temperature level.
Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
smico
Barrie,
You can get variac and crank it up to higher voltage to get more power. I go up to 130V on regular basis to catch up with template profile, and effectively compensate for colder environment, or increased weight.
Miroslav
Hottop B2 + HTC, Cremina 83, OE Pharos, Brewtus IIIR, Baratza Vario
Barrie
Now that is an idea, Miroslav. I wonder where I can get one without breaking the bank? I have always looked on that as a rather expensive accessory.
Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
smico
You are in no hurry. Wait for like-new American made variac on Craigs list, even Ebay.
I bought mine from this guy but you are far away from Toronto:
http://www.kijiji...nFlag=true
Hottop B2 + HTC, Cremina 83, OE Pharos, Brewtus IIIR, Baratza Vario
Barrie
Miroslav,
I do not monitor all roasts with a kill-a-watt but, when I have done so, the line voltage is always good; ie there is no problem with normal usage (which is indoors). With a large load how much do you think I would have to crank up the voltage so as to avoid prolonging roast time?
Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
smico
If you already run your roast at 100% power, and if you want to hit the same profile with more coffee, you need more power, and the only way is variac.
On the other hand there is different interplay in heat distribution among beans if you have more beans in the drum. Ciel does it on regular basis. We should just try.
Hottop B2 + HTC, Cremina 83, OE Pharos, Brewtus IIIR, Baratza Vario
Barrie

Quote

smico wrote:

If you already run your roast at 100% power, and if you want to hit the same profile with more coffee, you need more power, and the only way is variac.
On the other hand there is different interplay in heat distribution among beans if you have more beans in the drum. Ciel does it on regular basis. We should just try.

The problem is that the least expensive new 20amp variacs on the internet have a maximum output of 130v, and I am trying to find out if that is enough. Likely, they are made in China?
Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
smico
Barrie,
You should be good with 15A. I would buy only US made. Some people had troubles with the China made, some are happy with them. But why don't you try Ciel's profile on 300g? You might not need the variac after all.
Hottop B2 + HTC, Cremina 83, OE Pharos, Brewtus IIIR, Baratza Vario
turtle
I always roast 228 grams (1/2 lb +/-) and have always had perfect results from light all the way through burned charcoal. I had to run the gambit from fresh mowed grass to charcoal roasts to know the upper and lower limits of the roaster with a 1/2 lb bean load so I knew the "sweet spot" as far as time, temp, color, and aroma for each roast level (you have to "burn/ruin a few beans" to be able to roast good coffee).

I find that for a real dark roast sometimes I need to "fool" the internal thermocouple but running the fan 100% and pulling the rear filter out to move more air through. This keeps the temp in the chamber down with the burner still set at 100% which lets the beans "cook" a little longer otherwise the high limit safety auto-dumps the beans before I get the batch out to a good Vienna (dark with slight oils showing).

The light (1/2 lb) bean loading and dedicated circuit have been the "ticket" for me as far as getting all of the roast levels I am after.

I roast outside on a dedicated 20 amp circuit. The outlet is about 3 feet from the breaker panel so I am sure I have no voltage drop at all (unless the grid browns out).

i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u414/turtle-web/food/coffee/Hottop/roaster_near_bath_door_zps3f11cb24.jpg
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum
Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
Barrie

Quote

smico wrote:

Barrie,
You should be good with 15A. I would buy only US made. Some people had troubles with the China made, some are happy with them. But why don't you try Ciel's profile on 300g? You might not need the variac after all.

Can you send me a link to Ciel's profile that you mention, Miroslav? I hope it does not involve the super mod? Even at high loading temps, with full heater and no fan, my loads above 250g result in a drying time after bean loading that is too long. So I can't imagine any profile that would solve that.
Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
smico
Sorry Barrie, I can not find it any more.
I was never too curious, so he might have shared it with Ken only:
http://forum.home...post_40738
Hottop B2 + HTC, Cremina 83, OE Pharos, Brewtus IIIR, Baratza Vario
Barrie

Quote

smico wrote:

Sorry Barrie, I can not find it any more.
I was never too curious, so he might have shared it with Ken only:
http://forum.home...post_40738

Yes, I found the thread where he said he was roasting 300g with good results, using a high loading temp, but nothing more.

I ran a 283 gm roast today, loading at 343F (340 intended) and using 100% heater and no fan through the drying phase. My probes read low (note 1Cs at 365) and so the drying phase is taken only to 280) in the graph. With the larger load, this phase is prolonged and so yellowing was not really until the 6min.mark. Artisan shows 5:15 but that is to 280.
I have yet to taste the result of course but the graph shows the "flat out" capability of this roaster with a 283g load. A variac might help? If I push the loading temp much higher the alarm goes off and it tries to eject beans that have not yet been loaded. Shock I could probably take it to 350 (my probes) but would be getting into a scorching problem.
(The start of 2C was inadvertently delayed in this record and really occurred at 15:00. The drop time is correct - yes, a dark roast)
Barrie attached the following image:
el_salv_sm_siberia_bourbon_2014-05-04.png

Edited by Barrie on 05/04/2014 6:58 PM
Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
smico
Don't worry about the alarm Barrie. This is one of three dead man safety features, so you just confirm that you are alive and kicking by pressing any button.
One of my best profiles to roast El Salvador Cerro Miel has load temperature of 215 C (420 C) with no obvious tipping or scortching signs.
I can post the profile and blown up macro of the beans as I think that I still have some left.
Hottop B2 + HTC, Cremina 83, OE Pharos, Brewtus IIIR, Baratza Vario
snwcmpr
Hi Barrie, one thing I did with my HT when I charged at high temps was to activate the fan briefly at intervals to evacuate the moisture that may accumulate in the RC from the drying phase. I do not have any evidence to prove it, just anecdotal information from other roasters here.
I did not believe i was dropping temperature as much as the need to remove moisture in the air of the RC.

Are there any electronics or electrical experts than can shed light on the 'side effects' of running a machine like the HT at a voltage higher than designed?

Just a thought.
Ken in NC
--------------
Backwoods Roaster
"I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast."

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".
Barrie

Quote

smico wrote:

Don't worry about the alarm Barrie. This is one of three dead man safety features, so you just confirm that you are alive and kicking by pressing any button.
One of my best profiles to roast El Salvador Cerro Miel has load temperature of 215 C (420 C) with no obvious tipping or scortching signs.
I can post the profile and blown up macro of the beans as I think that I still have some left.
I understand the built-in alarms (don't we all thumbdown).

Presumably, 420F? If I load at that temperature, there is an obvious browning (cinnamon) of some of the beans almost immediately (viewed through the front window). There follows an uneven progression through the browning stages until after first crack, when any unevenness is concealed. I assume that what happens is that the first beans to hit the very hot drum take up calories, so that beans hitting the drum a little later meet cooler metal. A setup for an uneven roast? This sequence must happen with all roasts, but the temperature differences among beans will be less at lower loading temperatures?
Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
smico
My unit must be defective as nothing of the above happens to me ;)
I will write down HT temperature.
Hottop B2 + HTC, Cremina 83, OE Pharos, Brewtus IIIR, Baratza Vario
Barrie

Quote

smico wrote:

My unit must be defective as nothing of the above happens to me ;)
I will write down HT temperature.

I imagine that it would depend somewhat on the bean. When I observed the quick cinnamon, I had loaded 283g of SM Siberia Bourbon at OEM probe temp about 410F.

From the SM website excellent dictionary:
Scorching refers to a roast error that can be discerned by inspecting the roasted coffee, where darker burn marks appear in patches, especially on the flat surfaces. These can be seen as the coffee reaches 1st crack, but can sometimes be hidden by roast color at darker roast levels. But the flavor defect that results will remain. It can easily be tasted in the cup; burnt or smoke flavors, or a lack of sweetness. It is usually the result of an over-heated roast environment (initial drum temperature too high), or over-charged roast drum (too much coffee in the drum, or possibly not enough air movement. Natural coffees from lower-grown sites can be more susceptible to tipping and scorching. Scorching is also called Facing.
Barrie (San Diego, CA)
"So much to learn, so little time."
Hottop 2K+., Artisan, Jura Capresso ENA 3 (i.e. espresso).
smico
Thanks for the explanation Barrie.
Based on your description, I never have scorching defect. I always roast to City+ or full city, never even close to the second crack, and any dark burnt areas would be easy to spot on my always light browns.
I do very rarely observe tipping on softer beans if I am too aggressive.
Ken's explanation make sense. That might be the Ciel's secret ingedient.
I don't use fan before drying is over.
Hottop B2 + HTC, Cremina 83, OE Pharos, Brewtus IIIR, Baratza Vario
boar_d_laze

Quote

smico wrote:

I always roast to City+ or full city, never even close to the second crack
By definition, "Full City," is VERY close to second crack.

Roasting terms can be very "soft" and subjective, but "Full City" isn't one of them. The problem isn't so much determining exactly where on the City continuum you drop, but in understanding what you're trying to say about the final moments of temperature dynamics as they relate to things like tipping and tastes.

Quote

Are there any electronics or electrical experts than can shed light on the 'side effects' of running a machine like the HT at a voltage higher than designed?
Sorry for the non-responsive answer, but just wanted to say that the effects of overloading any roaster is a loss of agility which makes reacting in real time very difficult and really limits ultimate quality.

Rich
Edited by boar_d_laze on 05/06/2014 9:51 AM
USRC 1lb Roaster, Chemex+Kone, Espro, Various FPs, Royal Siphon Vacuum, Yama Ice Drip Tower, Bunnzilla, La Cimbali M21 Casa, Ceado E92.
CookFoodGood
smico
Rich,
Thank you for the naming lesson. I wanted to point out that my roasts are very light brown, wrinkles remain on most of the beans, and burnt patches and tips would show and they normally don't.

As for the control of the roaster, there is no observable difference in control of the Hotop for voltages up to 130 V.
Hottop B2 + HTC, Cremina 83, OE Pharos, Brewtus IIIR, Baratza Vario
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