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12/07/2023 9:47 AM
Hi Ken, good to see you again!
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 bagging coffee ?
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| Koffee Kosmo |
Posted on 04/21/2015 5:46 AM
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 Administrator  Posts: 1620 Joined: December 31, 2008 |
The lighter the roast the greater the degas / rest time the beans need Or they will taste grassy if consumed to early On the other hand over roasted beans will need less time and will develop an oily sheen withinn24 hours. Having said all that Different results will be obtained on the brewing method used Lighter roasts can handle hotter water and long steep times But coffee roasted for espresso is roasted up to 2nd crack Coffee roasted for this method will handle a water heat band of about 89 to 93 degrees Celsius for best results Water to cold will give you a lemon taste - water to hot will result in burnt flavours KK I home roast and I like it. Designer of the KKTO
Roaster Build information https://homeroast...ad_id=1142 https://docs.goog...lide=id.i0 Blog - http://koffeekosm...gspot.com/ Bezzera Strega, Mazzer Robur Grinder, Pullman Tamper Convex, (KKTO) Turbo Oven Home Roaster. |
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| Ringo |
Posted on 04/21/2015 5:47 AM
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 Pounder  Posts: 474 Joined: January 14, 2010 |
OK I posted to early this morning, its not a carbonic reaction that turns co2 into acid, thats how the co2 is created in the boiler and has noting to do with coffee. I do still believe the condensing of co2 in coffee would go acidic and change flavors. I tried to throw that post away and could not. I know there are some chemist reading that and will be ready to correct me.
All you need in life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure. Mark Twain
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| MJSykes |
Posted on 04/21/2015 5:01 PM
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 Newbie  Posts: 10 Joined: June 10, 2014 |
Quote Ringo wrote: I only roast light so my beans almost never get oil. I believe oxygen is the main enemy when you want to preserve the flavor of coffee. CO 2 is better for coffee than oxygen, but I do not think you want it under presure. I believe the oil outside the beans is a direct relation to the roast darkness so the longer it rest the oiler it will get. So if it's dark roasted it's going to get oily before it's ready to drink. I also believe dark roasted beans get old faster than light roast because the coffee oils are exposed to the air. I run boilers for my day job and co 2 is a big problem with steam. When you condense co2 back to a liquid you get a carbonic reaction that makes an acid, I would guess the reaction has some effect on coffee flavor. Maybe you need some co2 for flavor but not too much. Your argument that dark roasted beans get old faster due to the exposure of coffee oils to air makes sense to me. Your suggestion that the roasted beans should not be "under pressure" conflicts with other advice in this thread. Is there agreement that freshly roasted beans should not be in a negative pressure environment (i.e., vacuum packed)? I have not noticed any condensation in my ziplock bags of medium to dark roasted beans. It may be more of an isue with light-roasted beans which retain more moisture. Do one-way valves prevent condensation? Why do you think "too much" co2 exposure harms the beans? |
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| Koffee Kosmo |
Posted on 04/21/2015 5:18 PM
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Administrator Posts: 1620 Joined: December 31, 2008 |
After several thousand roasts After many trial and error tests Take it from me that rest time is important The best method is a container with a one way valve Rest / degas for a period to suit your roast depth and your tastebuds and the region the beans come from is very important Weather I think one thing or another makes a deference is not the issue The issue is what works and has worked from experience Now the challenge to you is - prove it to yourself KK I home roast and I like it. Designer of the KKTO
Roaster Build information https://homeroast...ad_id=1142 https://docs.goog...lide=id.i0 Blog - http://koffeekosm...gspot.com/ Bezzera Strega, Mazzer Robur Grinder, Pullman Tamper Convex, (KKTO) Turbo Oven Home Roaster. |
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| JackH |
Posted on 04/21/2015 5:35 PM
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 Administrator Posts: 1809 Joined: May 10, 2011 |
I wonder if anyone has tried vacuum sealing freshly roasted coffee? I store mine in a canister with a 1 way valve. If I am giving it away as a gift, I use bags with the 1 way valve built in. Here is an old thread from 2006 on how to add a 1 way valve to a standard canning jar: http://forum.home...ead_id=336 Edited by JackH on 04/21/2015 5:43 PM ---Jack
KKTO Roaster. |
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| Ringo |
Posted on 04/21/2015 6:44 PM
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Pounder Posts: 474 Joined: January 14, 2010 |
I agree with coffee and jack a valved beg is the best storage and aging. It keeps the oxigen out and let the co2 get out. Roasting is a very personal thing and you need to find what gets the flavors you like.
All you need in life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure. Mark Twain
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| HoldTheOnions |
Posted on 04/21/2015 7:56 PM
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1/2 Pounder  Posts: 205 Joined: October 26, 2014 |
I'm wondering how vacuum sealing would affect the structure of the beans and degassing. Hmmm. |
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| Koffee Kosmo |
Posted on 04/22/2015 1:12 AM
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Administrator Posts: 1620 Joined: December 31, 2008 |
Quote HoldTheOnions wrote: I'm wondering how vacuum sealing would affect the structure of the beans and degassing. Hmmm. Vacuum sealing coffee bags is not a complete vacuum Many areas in between the beans will hold oxygen Vacuum sealing should not hinder the degas process KK I home roast and I like it. Designer of the KKTO
Roaster Build information https://homeroast...ad_id=1142 https://docs.goog...lide=id.i0 Blog - http://koffeekosm...gspot.com/ Bezzera Strega, Mazzer Robur Grinder, Pullman Tamper Convex, (KKTO) Turbo Oven Home Roaster. |
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| boar_d_laze |
Posted on 04/22/2015 9:02 AM
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 1/4 Pounder  Posts: 181 Joined: May 28, 2013 |
Quote Ringo wrote: I agree with coffee and jack a valved beg is the best storage and aging.... Amen to that. I'm going to add the non-illuminating observation that you need to use whichever method works best for you. I pour the coffee into valve bags immediately after weighing, and heat seal the bags. The bags we've chosen to use are expensive (as bags go) because they're not just green but "compostable." Similarly, the heat sealer is the "crimping" sort, rather than the single wire type because crimpers work better even though they're a little slower, smaller (makes them less versatile), and considerably more expensive. Finally, I stamp every bag with a logo and write the type of bean, roast date, and weight on every bag -- along with any other information that might matter. If we plan on storing the coffee a little past the "best window," we put the sealed bags in Coffeevacs, which seems to slow the aging process to about half. If we want to store longer, we freeze -- a thing we don't do as often as we should -- and I allow the bags to outgas for a couple of days before putting them in a freezer bag. In other words, we do it very much as a small commercial operation might. At this stage of the game I'm not giving away much more than twice as much coffee as we use ourselves, and the amount of trouble and expense I go to might not make sense to someone on the outside looking in. To be honest, I find satisfaction in knowing I'm doing the best job I reasonably can, and at least as much in playing pro. Rich USRC 1lb Roaster, Chemex+Kone, Espro, Various FPs, Royal Siphon Vacuum, Yama Ice Drip Tower, Bunnzilla, La Cimbali M21 Casa, Ceado E92.
CookFoodGood |
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| Ringo |
Posted on 04/22/2015 9:19 AM
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Pounder Posts: 474 Joined: January 14, 2010 |
So what is a coffee vac?
All you need in life is ignorance and confidence, and then success is sure. Mark Twain
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| snwcmpr |
Posted on 04/22/2015 8:09 PM
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 1 1/2 Pounder  Posts: 925 Joined: March 03, 2011 |
A container with a one-way valve. http://www.amazon...B0046JB136 I got 2, different than these or what is on SM site today, from Sweet Marias last year. I put the roasted coffee in there to rest, then transfer to a mason jar for foodsaver vacuum sealing or, as a gift, into a one-way valve bag. The bags I seal with an old vintage iron. If I do more than 2 roasts, one lb each, then I use the half gallon mason jar with a loose lid for the rest period. Ken in NC --------------
Backwoods Roaster "I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast." As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet". |
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| allenb |
Posted on 04/22/2015 8:39 PM
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 Administrator Posts: 3779 Joined: February 23, 2010 |
Quote JackH wrote: I wonder if anyone has tried vacuum sealing freshly roasted coffee? I store mine in a canister with a 1 way valve. If I am giving it away as a gift, I use bags with the 1 way valve built in. Here is an old thread from 2006 on how to add a 1 way valve to a standard canning jar: http://forum.home...ead_id=336 We had an Italian made chamber purge/vac machine at the roastery I used to work for and it would do a nitrogen flush then very deep vacuum to all of our coffees sold in valve bags. Most coffees were packaged no more than a couple of days out of the roaster and none of them, no matter how much of a brick they had become during the vacuum/sealing operation, ever maintained the vacuum more than a few hours due to CO2 outgassing. Afterward most of the valve bags would end up in a neutral state (neither brick nor puffed). The question was raised whether or not a CO2 gas environment was detrimental to the flavor of coffee as it rests in a container. In all of my experience in the industry and in picking the brains of the pros in the packaging industry, I've never heard anyone make this claim. Since CO2 is a natural by-product of roasted coffee beans and they are being bathed in it continuously from day one till time of consumption, it would be a very bad thing if it were the case. Now, I have heard that if fresh roasted coffee is kept in a non-venting container and is allowed to reach the maximum possible pressure and if kept at that pressure, then it will prevent any further outgassing and can cause the time needed to degass to extend much longer than if allowed to only build to a low pressure environment. A low pressure CO2 environment in a loosely capped mason jar is a good thing and being an inert gas, helps displace freshness killing oxygen. It would be of interest to me to know if at a certain pressure from CO2 outgassing, that the post-roast improvement from resting could be retarded or compromised by slowing down its release. I've never read anything definitive on the subject. There's obviously the difference in the quality of extraction comparing an aggressively foaming bed of coffee during brewing versus one where water can readily contact all of the grounds equally but this is not a primary reason for the improvement had during the rest period. Regardless of how we're going to bag or store our freshly roasted coffee, the object is to get the coffee into a sealed container as soon as physically possible to minimize exposure to oxygen since the staling clock starts immediately. Allen 1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
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| chimpy74 |
Posted on 04/25/2015 6:57 AM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 51 Joined: June 18, 2014 |
hi guys thanks for your advice regarding bagging coffee, I have enjoyed reading your conversation. I have noticed something today. this probably seems obvious but I thought I would tell everyone. I bagged up three bags of costa rica, all foil bags with one way air valves. all were closed by squeezing zip lock with my fingers, but one was heat sealed as well. I found after two weeks the two that were just snapped together had lost heaps of flavour and the one that was heat sealed tasted good, I think the gas must find a way out of the snap lock and leave a gap.. regards mark |
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| snwcmpr |
Posted on 04/25/2015 7:30 AM
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1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 925 Joined: March 03, 2011 |
I have found the same thing. If I only seal the 'zip' closure the bag does not seal, it does require heat sealing. Ken in NC --------------
Backwoods Roaster "I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast." As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet". |
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| boar_d_laze |
Posted on 04/25/2015 7:31 AM
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1/4 Pounder Posts: 181 Joined: May 28, 2013 |
Coffeevac Doug Garret (of OE) reviewed it, and if ever or ever there was a no BS guy it's Doug. He sold me. We have a bunch. Rich Edited by boar_d_laze on 04/25/2015 7:45 AM USRC 1lb Roaster, Chemex+Kone, Espro, Various FPs, Royal Siphon Vacuum, Yama Ice Drip Tower, Bunnzilla, La Cimbali M21 Casa, Ceado E92.
CookFoodGood |
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