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Nespresso patent revelations
JETROASTER
https://freebie.n...wl63qApDqC

The short story;
A very clever and deliberate use of fines to control pressure and flow rate through an equally clever brew pod membrane.
Before we get to slamming nespresso pods, a few truths.
They consistently produce extraction yields between 15-18% for shorts, a little higher for longs. Anyone can do it. Zero learning curve. Extremely accessible for the consumer.
On the technical side, they are nothing like a Kuerig. The target demographic is also miles away from the Kuerig.
They have a big share of a consumer segment that specialty roasters would do well to have.
Most importantly; they spent a whole bunch of money and time on research. The patents (like 1000+ of them) began expiring in 2012, we now have access to the results of that research.
So, this post is only about discussing the science. I really don't want to get hung up on the evils of pods or nestle, that can be another discussion elsewhere.
These folks really did the homework. I won't recite what you can easily read for yourself, but the overview is that they addressed extraction almost completely through the pod itself.
The carefully calculated percentage of fines, chosen to react with the geometry and design of the membrane (controlling pressure and flow), which then reacts with the membrane interface to produce the crema. Then, recalculating the dose, average grind size and fines ratio to address different extraction needs for shorts, longs, ristretto, etc.
Overall, the percentage of fines is low, but not because fines are "bad", but rather because the fines are part of the extraction mechanism.

It makes me wonder if I might change the way I look at brewing a bit?
Beyond pressure profiling, do we now consider stratified doses in our portafilter?

I found it an interesting read. Albeit a bit dry.
Cheers, Scott
snwcmpr
Is this like having (small) sand, (medium) marbles, and (large) ping pong balls in a container? The smaller (fines) fit in between the larger ones to form a more dense (pocket) of coffee grounds?
If so, does this mean they ground the coffee in different sessions to achieve different sizes, and then mixed them together for inserting into the pod?

Or, did I read that all wrong?

Ken in NC
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Backwoods Roaster
"I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast."

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".
JETROASTER
I'd say you nailed it. They seemed to specify different types of grinding machines for different applications. Then as you saw, they selected specific quantities of different grind sizes (including fines) to achieve the needed back pressure and flow rate. Pretty snazzy.
Cheers, -Scott
CharcoalRoaster
I will say that this gives me a much greater appreciation for a machine like the Nespresso and the thought that went into the process.
snwcmpr
Wow! Now... Will someone here do that at home?
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Backwoods Roaster
"I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast."

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".
ginny
very interesting and to attempt to measure the size of the media (coffee) in the pods and have them different sizes is amazing. they clearly spent a lot of time.

when I was in Palm Springs two weeks ago I used one of their machines as my tiny, little gem of a hotel in downtown had two...

the stuff was excellent and the pods are very small. I kept a couple to take apart but they are lost in my FJ so I must go under the seats...

will let you know.


ginny
CharcoalRoaster
The coffee was good Ginny? How would you put it up against some fresh roasted shots pulled at home?
ginny
OK, my response is here:


http://forum.home...post_59682

the pod v. real brew continues. Thanks all.


ginny
snwcmpr
This is what I gained from the Nespresso patent information.
If I ground 3-4 different grinds, and then combined them in a correct manner, the brew I got would be better than if I ground one grind and made a brew the same way.
I would say old coffee beans in any manner would be just that 'old coffee beans'.

Anyone have a Keurig and used their fresh roasted beans in the "K" cup?

Ken in NC
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Backwoods Roaster
"I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast."

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".
ginny
Ken,

will you please ask your question in the other thread as this is only for the patent issues as stated.

thank you,


ginny
snwcmpr
You ask me to post it somewhere else, and then you moved it?
I'm confused, I thought I hadn't posted it.
Edited by ginny on 04/14/2016 5:55 PM
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Backwoods Roaster
"I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast."

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".
ginny
Ken, I ONLY asked you to move your question, not the entire post. this thread is pod talk, Scott's is about the machine and patent so your post remains there; only wanted the question moved to pod talk thread.

thanks, I fixed it for you.
JETROASTER
Here's a possible comparison or experiment. Think of loading a portafilter as one might usually do it. ....weigh dose....load, tamp. The tamping being done to achieve a desired back-pressure based on dose size, grind etc.
Then try the somewhat Nespresso pod approach; Sift the same size ground coffee dose, separating the fines. Place a small filter (say from an Aeropress) in the base of the portafilter. Use enough of the fines to coat the filter, put the remaining fines aside. . Put the other remaining grounds in, but don't bother tamping....the fines on the filter are going to create the needed back-pressure.
That's the purpose of this post. It's a very different way of approaching extraction, so I am interested in seeing some feedback from the more experienced espresso folks.
Cheers, -Scott
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