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Homeroasters - Home Roasting Coffee Community » THE ART OF ROASTING COFFEE » Roasting Coffee

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Thinking about going commercial - help!
CharcoalRoaster	#1 Posted on 04/26/2016 10:51 AM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 640 Joined: April 13, 2012	I recently came across a potential opportunity to get into roasting for a local shop that currently outsources their beans. We briefly discussed the idea to roast in house and potentially wholesale in our area. I homeroast but have never considered roasting commercially before. I need some help with a few different things and any help you guys can offer would be GREATLY appreciated! The shop currently purchases coffee at @ 8.40/lb (espresso) and 7.25/lb (drip,etc). They go through 60lb/week. 1) What's the severity of the learning curve moving from homeroasting (4years) to commercial? 2) If I'm just the roaster what's the best partnership structure to go for? Per lb cost? Percentage of overall profit? I have little business acumen, can you tell? :-) 3) Greens source to start? I have no experience with wholesaling greens from major distributors only purchasing small quantities from SM, Happy Mug, etc. 4) What kind of income will this generate? Has generated for those of you in the business? 5) Any major thoughts that I'm overlooking in my excitement?


JETROASTER	#2 Posted on 04/26/2016 12:24 PM
Administrator Posts: 1780 Joined: March 06, 2010	That's a lot to chew on! I should ask what your current capacity per hr is? Perhaps consider toll roasting to begin with. Here's a peak at Gillies Toll roasting breakdown. They are high volume, but it gives an idea of some of things involved http://www.gillie...l-roasting I'll check in on the thread later. Cheers, Scott


oldgearhead	#3 Posted on 04/26/2016 12:27 PM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 1128 Joined: February 10, 2011	I think it would be very hard to compete at those prices unless you can buy whole bags. My very first contact would be Cafe' Imports. For instance if you purchased from a home roaster supplier like Happy Mug your cost per pound would run about $5.00/pound plus $0.70 for shipping. So lets round it up to $6.00 on your doorstep. Now lets add the shrink of $1.02 and we arrive at $7.02. After your other expenses there is no profit, unless you can buy and transport full bags. Are you sure those prices are correct? Seems awful low for high quality roasted coffee.. No oil on my beans...


ginny	#4 Posted on 04/26/2016 2:25 PM
Founder Posts: 3476 Joined: October 24, 2005	Interesting and Scott thanks for the peak at Gillis... well, my guess is that you cannot do 60 plus pounds on your home roaster so you need or they need to buy a large batch roaster and do it on site which leads to multiple other issues like can they?? are they set up for roasting or do they want you to do it off site? I may be wrong since I do not know what you use to roast with, can you do 60 plus a week? do you have time? how many kinds of coffee do they want? you will most likely not make a dime for some time as you will have out of pocket costs for bags, equipment for packing and labeling (that can come later) but still there are many expenses to starting a new business, new business for you, unless you are simply the roaster using all of his equipment. I am very inclined to look to Scotts idea of Gillis Toll for an initial move in the direction of in-house roasting. let me ask what this person's reason is for asking you, does he simply want to roast for himself, save money, both, create a new business plan or... and the kicker is are you prepared to start all over in life with a new direction for your hobby?? lot to think about here and I have just added to your issues with my random thoughts. will be looking for your comments. hugs, your gonna need some... ginny


CharcoalRoaster	#5 Posted on 04/26/2016 7:26 PM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 640 Joined: April 13, 2012	Thanks for the initial responses everyone - I should've offered a little more insight into the situation. Here's some more background: I started a church in the projects of south Chattanooga a few years ago. We pursue spiritual, educational, economic, and racial reconciliation. We are an urban church filled with single moms, gang bangers, and a lot of suffering people. As you can imagine our financial situation is precarious at best. So far we have pursued traditional funding models but are exploring alternatives so we can become sustainable in our efforts. I received an email from a fellow pastor who started a coffee shop for solvency purposes. He started the shop about 6 years ago with a partner who has since left for other ventures. Neither one was focused on the coffee necessarily, more the atmosphere and business end. So, over the course of their short history they have used about 4 different roasters but I've had them all and none are that great. Right now they use a semi-local roaster, Mayfly, but I've had better. After we talked for about an hour and I confessed to my homeroasting addiction I joked that if he ever decided to roast in house I'd love to come play on the roaster. He responded that he had thought about roasting in house but knew nothing about roasting at all. The idea popped into my head that if I entered into business with him and roasted the beans necessary in house and perhaps do some local wholesaling then I could supplement our meager donations of support. He was excited about the possibility but we both agreed to see what the numbers would work out to be. I would only be looking to supplement my current income with a goal of 20-35k/year. I would also need to roast part time as my main focus is the church and our community development efforts. Hope this helps a bit and perhaps will guide the discussion a bit better. Thanks again for your input and advice. I trust you guys


JETROASTER	#6 Posted on 04/27/2016 8:07 AM
Administrator Posts: 1780 Joined: March 06, 2010	That is useful. Based on that info, I think I might leverage the church as the incubator. It's a great asset. The church likely has, or could have a certified kitchen. That could serve as a co-operative launch pad for your roasting endeavor as well as any other ideas that can create employment /training, mentorship etc. This sort of enterprise can make a strong anchor point for building community. You could then easily help support the coffee house...without being married to it. You're already committed to your church, might just as well keep your energy focused there....and expand your passion for the roast. How you get compensated depends on your bylaws etc. But, before we get ahead of ourselves...... As it all applies to coffee, it still comes back to capacity and the cost of gearing up. I've been roasting as a working hobby for a number of years. I'd consider the threshold of 50lbs per hour as where you need to be for model to be sustainable. All the best. -Scott


CharcoalRoaster	#7 Posted on 04/27/2016 9:02 AM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 640 Joined: April 13, 2012	Thanks Scott - A couple follow up questions in terms of thinking through the financial viability of everything... - Better option to pursue: (1) become a business partner and ask for a % of overall profit in exchange for roasting beans in house? (2) roast off location and have this shop purchase beans like what they are currently doing? - Machines: go big or go home? Or, mitigate some of the initial startup costs and purchase a smaller capacity/cheaper roaster until growth dictates upgrading? - I would guess most roasters when starting out on a commercial endeavor don't immediately globetrot like Tom from SM or others. Reputable green importers with quality beans to start exploring?


JETROASTER	#8 Posted on 04/27/2016 1:57 PM
Administrator Posts: 1780 Joined: March 06, 2010	As a business approach, I would personally go with option #2. It just seems like a cleaner way to go. As for a machine: At 60 pounds a week, one might argue that the need is already there. With a few minutes and some scratch paper, you'll quickly figure out how your hourly capacity directly translates to your pay grade. ....And then there's growth potential to be considered. Beans: No need to globe-trot, other people already do that. Cafe Imports (as OGH mentioned), Coffee Shrub. I've found that discovering my strongest suit and staying focused might actually be the toughest part. Cheers, -Scott


ginny	#9 Posted on 04/28/2016 7:00 AM
Founder Posts: 3476 Joined: October 24, 2005	Quote (2) roast off location and have this shop purchase beans like what they are currently doing? again, I echo Scott in his approach and for one big reason, he has done this already... remember, take all you can from those who have been there and freely offer you information with no hidden agenda... much to think about but for roasting, I agree off-site and sell back unless they have a commercial kitchen as that would solve many of your issues that will arise like permits for roasting etc... plus you may have a larger or better space to roast in other than home. bigger roaster, check with Mill City and other manufacturing folks and see if they have demo's for sale or perhaps one that is moderately used they really do not need any longer. my principle has always been: it NEVER hurts to ask, period. from the info thus far you could end up with a great asset to the community you serve and in doing so create this "side" business for yourself. getting the roasting started is number one, do it the most cost effective way to start and SEE what happens from there - you may find it is not what you want at all and as long as the shop has the coffee it needs right now, grow into the rest as you roast for them, you will see the needs as they pop up. make notes as you think of things to look for and address. more later, ginny


ginny	#10 Posted on 04/28/2016 7:07 AM
Founder Posts: 3476 Joined: October 24, 2005	as this is a community endeavour, perhaps involve the community with a contest for a new logo for the cafe, you could have tastings for your new coffee as you bring them into the cafe to see what the locals like best. (tasting being a small cup for free to get a reaction.) have some cards to fill out when you start using a new blend and ask customers to remark on the taste. only, if nothing else, to see if they actually can tell a difference. you can then blend which may reduce the cost, yet give the cafe a signature drink of brew... -g


HoldTheOnions	#11 Posted on 04/28/2016 9:32 AM
1/2 Pounder Posts: 205 Joined: October 26, 2014	Maybe I am stating the obvious, but to make $20,000 a year at 60 pounds a week you would need to net $6.41 a lb. Netting $2lb you will need to sell 192lbs a week. To achieve your goals you will either need to sell more lbs or more per lb. I would highly recommend preparing a complete business plan https://www.sba.g...iness-plan before spending money or committing to anything.


CharcoalRoaster	#12 Posted on 04/28/2016 9:43 AM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 640 Joined: April 13, 2012	Oh most definitely! We barely spoke about it and have no solid timeline or plan in place - just the basic idea to be examined. I just knew that this would be the first place to ask for advice and one of the most trusted before jumping into the deep end.


Ashly	#13 Posted on 04/28/2016 9:53 AM
Newbie Posts: 1 Joined: January 16, 2015	Quote I would guess most roasters when starting out on a commercial endeavor don't immediately globetrot like Tom from SM or others. Reputable green importers with quality beans to start exploring? Cafe Imports is very reputable. Big-ups on Joe Morocco, and Mill City. Mill City's you tube videos provide a tremendous amount of information and insight. For green coffee also consider Global Coffee Trading, they can get you what you want and need, and they are currently in cahoots with a coffee farming family in Kenya and building them a new mill. insert bias my husband works there, so if you do order coffee from them reference Ray. How exciting, the opportunity to roast more often and get financial reimbursement. Good Luck!!


CharcoalRoaster	#14 Posted on 04/28/2016 12:13 PM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 640 Joined: April 13, 2012	Scott since you've got some experience in this endeavor - would you recommend gas, electric, or infrared on a roaster that would handle loads between 1kg-3kg?


JETROASTER	#15 Posted on 04/28/2016 4:41 PM
Administrator Posts: 1780 Joined: March 06, 2010	I'm probably not qualified for that one other than to suggest talking to the folks at Mill City. They seem to be really customer focused with a great reputation. I've only ever built my own roasters because that's what I have a passion for. I've got a thing for combustion and air-roasting, so propane has been my weapon of choice, but I am currently prototyping a hybrid that could well go electric. Which one is "best" probably has more to do with your objectives and funding vs. mechanical details. Best, -Scott


CharcoalRoaster	#16 Posted on 04/28/2016 7:11 PM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 640 Joined: April 13, 2012	Steve from Mill City was friendly and quick in his reply. He recommended a 1kg roaster, but I wasn't sure if that was too small...


JETROASTER	#17 Posted on 04/29/2016 8:19 AM
Administrator Posts: 1780 Joined: March 06, 2010	Sounds like that would be a good fit for the "in shop" option. 6 batches a day, 5 days a week would keep the cafe satisfied. If pre-existing staff is putting out the batches during the off-peak hours, it could make some sense. That machines capacity would not warrant putting on xtra staff to roast or chase wholesale. Perhaps the church could simply lease the machine to the cafe with a few conditions in the lease that allow you to put out some batches of your own? Still not clear if the church has it's own DOH kitchen? Cheers, Scott


turtle	#18 Posted on 04/29/2016 8:26 AM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 652 Joined: November 06, 2013	Understand that roasters will run more consistent roasts after they are up to a stable temp. If you see the need for 6 kilos a day you DO NOT want a 6 kilo roaster as one batch a day will be awful as the roaster will not get to stable temp to roast for a single batch. You would be better running 6 one kilo roasts back to back for a better result. This is why they are recommending a smaller machine for you. My 1 lb batch roaster is too large for my personal needs but I use it anyway. Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time" "I'd rather be roasting coffee" Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1 Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+ Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3) Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials) Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto Vacuum: Cona - Bodum Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia


CharcoalRoaster	#19 Posted on 04/29/2016 2:31 PM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 640 Joined: April 13, 2012	Scott - we do not have any space to call our own. We are a church plant that lives, moves, and breathes out of a local rec center. We would either need to lease a roasting space or roast in house at the shop. No one at the shop currently has roasting knowledge or desire to take this on. Turtle - thank for bringing up the need for the roaster to be at a stable temp to improve roasts. I hadn't thought about that but it makes sense as to why Scott recommended a 1kg machine.


JETROASTER	#20 Posted on 04/30/2016 8:13 AM
Administrator Posts: 1780 Joined: March 06, 2010	Ok, so roasting at the coffee house is the realistic option. To supply their needs and roast at a rate that could generate some income for you, I think you might need more capacity. I currently only have about 6-8 hrs per week that can go to coffee, so I really needed to do 10lb batches. How many hours can you throw at this per week? Cheers, Scott


turtle	#21 Posted on 04/30/2016 8:28 AM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 652 Joined: November 06, 2013	Quote CharcoalRoaster wrote: Turtle - thank for bringing up the need for the roaster to be at a stable temp to improve roasts. I hadn't thought about that but it makes sense as to why Scott recommended a 1kg machine. You must factor in your warm up and cool down cycles into the overall daily roasting time. A roast will run 12-14 minutes but it will take 45 minutes to an hour to slowly bring a small roaster up to stable temp. I run mine at a stable temp for 7-10 minutes before adding more heat and charging my first batch of green. My cool down time runs a little longer than an hour. I am using a 1 lb commercial batch roaster so not a lot of iron to heat and cool I can back to back with little more than 5 minutes between (this time is spent making sure the roasted beans have cooled properly and placed into their storage containers before starting another batch) Cool down time can be as long as 2 hours depending on the size of the roaster you are using. A single 6 kilo batch in a roaster of that size could take 3 hours, 12-14 minutes of which would be spend roasting the coffee. Six 1 kilo batches would run the same time or maybe 30 minutes longer as you will spend less time waiting on the heat up and cool down of a smaller roaster. The time spend roasting will be mostly spent waiting for warm up and cool down of the machine. Just a heads up on the time you will need to set aside. Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time" "I'd rather be roasting coffee" Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1 Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+ Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3) Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials) Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto Vacuum: Cona - Bodum Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia


JETROASTER	#22 Posted on 04/30/2016 9:15 AM
Administrator Posts: 1780 Joined: March 06, 2010	What is the actual hourly capacity of this 1kg roaster? EDIT> Just looked it up. They seem to go from 10-13lbs per hour. A rough number to consider for your man-hours. Cheers -Scott Edited by JETROASTER on 04/30/2016 9:44 AM


CharcoalRoaster	#23 Posted on 05/04/2016 4:17 PM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 640 Joined: April 13, 2012	As I've been thinking about the roasting space itself I wondered if anyone had any thoughts/input on using an enclosed trailer or box truck for a roastery? Since we don't have a physical space at our church and am unsure on what kind of space may or may not be available at the shop it dawned on me that perhaps a properly outfitted trailer or truck would work...


turtle	#24 Posted on 05/04/2016 8:10 PM
1 1/2 Pounder Posts: 652 Joined: November 06, 2013	If you get a 1 kilo it should fit on a cart that can be moved in and out as needed. Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time" "I'd rather be roasting coffee" Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1 Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+ Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3) Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials) Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto Vacuum: Cona - Bodum Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia


JETROASTER	#25 Posted on 05/05/2016 10:11 AM
Administrator Posts: 1780 Joined: March 06, 2010	Yes, I think it's a solid idea. I purchased an ambulance for that purpose.(roasting and packaging only) I now think the trailer would have been smarter. I'll be unloading the ambulance. In my area (Monroe County, NY), having anything larger than a cart still requires that I have a legit kitchen or commissary as a home-base for purposes of cleaning and prep. They make no exception for roasting, food is food. In accordance with my local regs, the kitchen need NOT be my own. If I have a formal letter of usage, someone else's commercial kitchen can serve as my commissary. The food truck or trailer still has it's own permit fee. Check your local food-service regs, but in general, I think it's not a bad idea at all. Cheers, Scott

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