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03/04/2021 9:04 PM
I have been trying Scott Rao Hario V60 pourover this week. 1:17 and blooming with 2 parts water the first 45 seconds then splitting the rest into 2 pours. A little stirring is included. We like it.

03/04/2021 11:35 AM
My brew ratio is 1:17 (exactly 59.5 g/L). That's roughly 8.5g per 5-oz cup.

02/27/2021 9:29 AM
I'm looking to hire someone to teach/help me to find the best roast profile for the 3 types of coffee that grow on my farm in nicaragua. I live in LA, but but could go anywhere in so cal with my Behmor for a roasting lesson. Please contact me if you're in

02/17/2021 7:20 PM
When your wife thinks 30 grams for a 6 cup setting is strong, you learn to drink muddy water when you are making coffee for both of you.

02/17/2021 8:32 AM
I use a rule of thumb of 60 grams per liter. 8 cups (1 liter, 32 oz) = 60 grams, 6 cups (3/4 liter, 24 oz) = 45 grams. 10 cups = 75 grams 12 cups = 90 grams

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Your hottop roast theory/technique regarding heat & RoR
yukoncornelius
Hopefully some people reply to this thread as my other thread in dataloggers was viewed by 200 people yet no replies and I was talking to crickets...

Not sure if anyone is active on this forum anymore?


I've been roasting with the hottop for 5 months now but this past weekend finally got around to installing omega thermocouples for monitoring BT and ET. In addition to this, they're hooked up to an HTC/TC4C that is running roastlogger. First impressions - wow I need to sorta relearn roast technique on the hottop because I'm finally getting accurate info. Its almost ridiculous when I compare how at some point near first crack, the hottop's readout (of the stock K thermocouple) is just not responsive compared to the new probes. Also seeing everything progress in roast logger is so sweet.

That said I need some general help/advice from you guys. This is going to be a long post, provide whatever info you like. How high of charge temps are you doing for various beans? Please give the number as measured by your BT thermocouple.

Onto RAO theory and ROR technique
How much stake do you put in the rao %, meaning from FC to roast end, that should be about 20-25% of total roast time. That seems to really counter what I remember hearing about stretching the time from FC to roast end to be at least 4-5 minutes which would be around ~7 RoR. If I follow the RAO ratio, a 5 minute development time would mean I'd have to have a total roast of at least 20 minutse (25% RAO) - that seems ridiculous?


I'm looking for general advice/technique on drying time, when to cut heat/increase fan around first crack, and your technique for what happens after FC. I know this varies by bean (africans, central americans, sumatrans - so I'd love to know how it varies for you).

Also for city and city+ roasts (what I find difficult to hit) - do you try to do an aggressive first crack, or a drawn out first crack? I'd like a nice profile for ethiopians as I still struggle to hit them properly, and for whatever reason the outside of the bean is darker than I feel it should for the % weight loss.

Thanks for all your help!
Randy G
I had the opportunity to talk to a number of Home Roasters as well as Pros at the SCAA show. The home roasters found Scott's data an interesting learning tool while the pros all sort of rolled their eyes. I was sticking with about a 23 to 25 DT, but recently am working with a 17 to 20% and I like that as well. Rao's theories come from his personal experience and he gathered enough data to show how he came to his conclusions. The Hottop couldn't be much more different than the roasters he uses. I tell folks, learn from that and modify to suit your taste and brewing methods.

Life's too short to drink bad coffee.
RobertL

Quote

yukoncornelius wrote:
I'd like a nice profile for ethiopians as I still struggle to hit them properly, and for whatever reason the outside of the bean is darker than I feel it should for the % weight loss.


I agree with you my roast always look darker than I think they should. I just started data logging myself and I'm hoping to solve this issue. My first two guesses are too high of charge temp or not enough agitation. I usually charge around 350f. I've been roasting on my Hottop for five years, I'm hoping to step my game up with data logging and documenting results.
turtle
Roasting is an art, not a science.

Trust your sense of sight, sound, and smell before you trust a temp reading. The location of your probes, the roast weight, etc may be different that what others are getting depending on their probe location, roast weight etc.

I use the BT/ET temps along with ambient temp only as a reinforcement of what I am seeing, hearing, and smelling during my roast sessions.

Coffee roasted "by the book" taste like "book coffee" Coffee roasted with your senses will always taste better.

Use your probe readings as "road signs" so that you can " go back there again" should you decide to.
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: Behmor 1600 +
Grinders: Modified Super Jolly - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
JETROASTER

Quote

turtle wrote:

Roasting is an art, not a science.




Any possibility that it could be both?
Cheers, Scott
turtle
If I were to put a percentage I would have to say 80% art 20% science.

I roasted for years without any feedback other than sight, smell and sound.

When I added probes I only verified what I was already doing. I have not made any changes in my roasting style since getting temp feed back as there is no need to as I am and always have been satisfied with the taste of the coffee I roast.

I judge EOD from the smell of the beans. My probes verify what I am smelling (temp at EOD). I judge FC by sound. My probes verify what I am hearing.

I still time my roasts with a timer and adjust heat and fan to stay within the time I have set for that roasting segment. Sometimes I use the simple roasting sheet that I created when I started roasting and record time/temp in it. I try to run 12-14 minutes total roast time. Artisan verifies all of this.

I do not think that adding temp feed back improved my roasts, just verified that what I was doing based on my senses was correct

But as with anything that has variables.... YMMV

.
Edited by JackH on 04/30/2016 8:33 AM
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: Behmor 1600 +
Grinders: Modified Super Jolly - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
btreichel
It's both. The better an artist understands theirs tools and media, the better they can express themselves. The final question I ask myself before I stop the roast, based upon smell, is this the coffee I want to drink, or do I think that there is more the coffee can offer.
JETROASTER
Back to your original question. I don't drum roast or use data-logging, but I can say that some Ethiopia Illubabor I had consistently came out darker than I would have expected based on the temp gauges. There is science involved, just not perfect science.
Have fun! -Scott
yukoncornelius

Quote

turtle wrote:

If I were to put a percentage I would have to say 80% art 20% science.

I roasted for years without any feedback other than sight, smell and sound.

When I added probes I only verified what I was already doing. I have not made any changes in my roasting style since getting temp feed back as there is no need to as I am and always have been satisfied with the taste of the coffee I roast.

I judge EOD from the smell of the beans. My probes verify what I am smelling (temp at EOD). I judge FC by sound. My probes verify what I am hearing.

I still time my roasts with a timer and adjust heat and fan to stay within the time I have set for that roasting segment. Sometimes I use the simple roasting sheet that I created when I started roasting and record time/temp in it. I try to run 12-14 minutes total roast time. Artisan verifies all of this.

I do not think that adding temp feed back improved my roasts, just verified that what I was doing based on my senses was correct

But as with anything that has variables.... YMMV

.


With all respect - I completely disagree.

Started with modified popcorn popper, moved to sr500, moved to behmor, moved to hottop, and now modified the hottop. If you are roasting with no grounding of what is ACTUALLY goign on with regard to rate of rise, its nearly a complete shot in the dark starting out; if anything because you have no idea what it should smell, look, or sound like, and it will take an unbelieveable amount of roasts to understand that.. I can smell, I can see (although seeing is hard without a trier), But unless I'm doing dozens of roasts of the same bean (which I don't have time for as a hobbyist roasting only for myself), its going to take a WHILE to be successful without concrete data. Moreover, there is AN EXTREME amount of variability in sight and smell - by bean, by me actually being able to see through a small glass window that is fogged up. Data points are much more repeatable and able to show you something more quickly from my perspective.

Roasting a bean IS science, and it IS chemistry. There is an artistic element to adapt and potentially create new roast principles, but I would argue to call that experience and instinct.

Its actually rather annoying when people on these forums simply say "its an art, keep roasting". To me thats somewhat of a cop out. I understand the principle of put the time in and you'll learn, but there are also fundamental theories that you have learned and continue to use while roasting. I'm not looking for specific answers but I am interested in the theories that all of you utilize while roasting. Slow start fast finish, fast start slow finish, etc etc. To me those are concepts that someone can digest, test, and then put their artistic spin on. What you like regarding SSFF, I may not, but I would enjoy testing the concept. For example on Saturday - I read about fast finish (which I had not ever tried) so I tried it with an ethiopian natural, and first crack seemed to unfold so nicely, the bean smells great, I think I nailed it!

Discussion topics such as
- Charge temp by batch size
- Overall roast length
- Ratio of (FC to roast end) / total roast time - does your thinking on that change as you go for Full City+ type roasts
- SSFF vs FSSF
-If you prefer to extend the time leading up to first crack, do you do that while the beans are drying (sub 300F) or do you like to do it after 300F. If you prefer to start fast and finish slow, at what temp do you prefer to start cutting heat before first crack and then what rate of rise do you try to hit during the development period.

I'd rather this thread be about actual concepts you've tried and had success with, rather than simply saying "its art, keep roasting young grasshopper".

If I went to one of the classes at my local roaster (which I'm upset I missed the class last month) - I can almost guarantee they would talk about concepts beyond sight, smell, sound.
Edited by yukoncornelius on 05/02/2016 10:24 AM
turtle

Quote

yukoncornelius wrote:

I'd rather this thread be about actual concepts you've tried and had success with, rather than simply saying "its art, keep roasting young grasshopper".


Preheat for 1 hour to a stable 400 degrees
Charge
EOD @ 45% +/- of total roast time (time/temp varies on bean)
Development @ 35% +/-of total roast time (time/temp varies on bean)
Maillard @ 20% +/- of total roast time (time/temp varies on bean)
Drop when roast time is between 12 and 14 min and desired BT is reached depending on the bean and the desired flavor/taste
Cool down not to acceded 3 minutes to ambient temp

I did this by sight sound and smell for years. I did not realize at the time the "technical" aspect of what I was achieving, I just always had extremely good tasting coffee.

If you "fit" within those time and percentage of total roast constraints you should have successful roasts.

I continued to roast in the same way after monitoring time and temp with probes, prior I only looked/smelled/listened, and recorded times when these changes happened.

Now all bets are off with each variety of bean and the age of the green at roast time as internal moisture is NOT consistent across coffee growing regions and even different growers of the same bean within the same growing region. Just because the sack has the same co-op name on it the next time it arrives is no guarantee that the beans contained within that sack are from the same plantation.

Coffee roasting is a "moving target" that is never the same. Once you run out of one batch of bean, your next purchase of the same bean from the same supplier can behave completely differently depending on how they have been stored and where the supplier sourced them from and from which plantation the co-op processed them from. Even the humidity on the day of processing/husking can effect things greatly.

As I stated previously, nothing has changed in my roasting habits pre-probes to post-probes. I let the beans tell me how to roast them based on my experience over the years.

I'm sure this is of little to no help to you at all as I have only roasted coffee in drum roasters and have no experience with hot air roasting which is a completely different beast.

So grasshopper, keep persevering. Keep detailed records of each roast including cupping notes.

It all becomes natural given enough intimate time with the bean

.
Edited by turtle on 05/03/2016 9:03 AM
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: Behmor 1600 +
Grinders: Modified Super Jolly - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
snwcmpr

Quote

rather than simply saying "its art, keep roasting young grasshopper".

I think what was meant was, you can read and be told many things that are helpful. But, there are influences that are unique to your environment. Think outside the box, don't keep doing what you've been doing if you want different results.
I remember, a few years ago, asking about the 'Elusive 4 minute drying' and I kept dropping at higher and higher temps. I got better tasting coffee when I DIDN'T follow the suggested rules of when to drop. Now suggestions for drop in the HT are 350 or more.
Now I don't shoot for 4 minute drying, I have better results at 5-5;30. (I now have a fliudbed).

Ken in NC
--------------
Backwoods Roaster
"I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast."

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".
JETROASTER
It's not completely accurate to say that I do NO data-logging. I use my non-patented "roast-o-meter". It is comprised of a dense foam gasket glued to the perimeter of a clock. Needles are placed in the gasket(starting from the left) to denote 1)start, 2)300, 3)400, 4) finish.
I don't watch beans, I don't listen for cracks. I watch time, temp, and I sniff a little smoke. I'm not looking for cut off points, my air-roaster requires none of the adjustments required by a drum, but it helps steer the curve. I will sometimes jot down the info and stick it on the bin to correlate with what I'm tasting later.
The other log simply tracks the loads for fuel purposes.
It is true that without some tracking, it would be impossible for me to learn a particular coffee.
Cheers, Scott
JETROASTER attached the following image:
roast_o_meter.jpg
turtle

Quote

JETROASTER wrote:

It's not completely accurate to say that I do NO data-logging. I use my non-patented "roast-o-meter". It is comprised of a dense foam gasket glued to the perimeter of a clock. Needles are placed in the gasket(starting from the left) to denote 1)start, 2)300, 3)400, 4) finish.
I don't watch beans, I don't listen for cracks. I watch time, temp, and I sniff a little smoke.


Piece of paper with the following in columns

ambient temp
charge - temp
low/return - time / temp
End of dry - time / temp
Return to charge - time / temp
start 1C - time /temp
End 1C - time / temp
2c start - time / temp
2c end - time / temp
Drop - time / temp

Either using my watch timer to record elapsed time and temp reading from the TMD-56 or I use a kitchen count up timer.

Not very high tech

i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u414/turtle-web/food/coffee/roasts/amprobe_tmd-56_roasting_zpsgdladbzg.jpg

i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u414/turtle-web/food/coffee/roasts/amprobe_tmd-56_timer_zpsyo20exbk.jpg
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: Behmor 1600 +
Grinders: Modified Super Jolly - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
Randy G
We can bandy about terms and we can deal with the semantics of the thing ad nauseum, but I think it is more a craft than art.

Still, there are tried and true facts that offer parameters for roasting. A 4 minute full-city roast will taste like unsweetened lemon juice, and a 24 minute roast to city will taste like a balsa wood glider. Right between those two lies a valuable target.

But roasting is not just about the target, it's more about the journey.

The science comes in when you get a really good roast at 38 degrees F ambient and want to replicate that roast when it's 95 F out. In cases such as that is where the science in the form of technology comes in very handy.

So if we widen the definitions, Art is the creation of a new, unique, and desirable roast for the first time, craft is the ability to replicate that roast at will, and science gives us the physical tools to do so.

Life's too short to drink bad coffee.
turtle

Quote

Randy G wrote:

I think it is more a craft than art.



Spot on.

.
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: Behmor 1600 +
Grinders: Modified Super Jolly - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
RobertL
To the OP and anyone else who is interested Mill City Roasters offers a coffee of the month. If enough people are interested we could all grab a few pounds and start a thread here discussing profiles and roasting of the same bean. Or we could pick a bean from another vendor, I'm in either way. Mill City usually streams a video of a roasting session with the coffee of the month along with a Q&A afterwards. Anyone interested?
snwcmpr
Do you mean... For Hot Top roasters or Mill City Roasters?
--------------
Backwoods Roaster
"I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast."

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".
RobertL
I roast with a Hottop but I think everyone could join in. I think we could all learn from each other. If we're talking roasting theories and techniques I think it could be translated from one roaster to the next.
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