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10/19/2021 6:22 AM
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Hip Profiling in 2016
seedlings
Used to be the roast was described in three segments, drying (to yellow, 300F/150C), browning (to 1st crack), and time to finish (to end of roast). Is this still the case, or is there a more modernized terminology I need to acquire? For example, how would a 5.5-4-3.5 430F roast be translated to modern roasting terms? (what that means is 5.5 minutes from start to 300F, 4 minutes from 300F to first crack, then 3.5 minutes from first crack to 430F, end of roast)

In catching up on posts here and other coffee sites, it's easy to see that color coded roasting logs are very popular, especially with the trendy Quest M3.

Someone please correct me where my generalizations go awry:

Dense, high altitude beans:
These beans are tolerant of higher heat, yet may take longer for heat to penetrate to the center of the coffee bean. Might load these at slightly higher ET, but allow a bit more time to yellow, that way the beans are evenly heated throughout. After that they can be run pretty hot and at a fast(er) rate up to before first crack. Ease off the heat before first crack starts, otherwise that density can speed up the roast too fast through first crack till finish. Watch them closely, and go easy on the heat to avoid rushing to the end of roast because of how much heat they hold.

Less dense, lower altitude beans:
These beans are more sensitive to scorching, so keep ET slightly lower throughout the roast. Lower ET for loading, and more steady heat rise throughout the roast because these beans will follow the ET much more closely. They require less time to yellow, and at a lower ET because of lower density. These can need a push of higher temperature into first crack, and then gradually lower the heat. Lower heat too much and the bean temp will follow causing a stall at the most critical point in roasting.

CHAD
Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500
Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover
btreichel
Are you familiar with the roaster school videos from Mill City? They talk about a new proposed methodology about, drying or pre and post 1st crack.

seedlings
I'm familiar with Dave, but not these videos. Thank you!

CHAD
Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500
Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover
hankua
At least my opinion is "hip roasting" is about the same as "3rd wave roasting"; where it's stopped somewhere between 1st and 2nd crack. The idea being to retain some of the origin notes in the coffee without "roast notes" overpowering.

I'm mainly talking about filter or pour over roasts, espresso has a different set of goals for the roaster.

Once one gets past the hair, tattoos, skate boards, and language; I see people interested in learning and growing in coffee roasting. Compare that to an operator who sets the pid at the drop temperature and picks up a paperback book or surfs the Internet waiting for the buzzer.

If your talking about Nortic style roasts being hip; it's not really mainstream quite yet and can suffer from underdeveloped notes from less skilled roasters.

And then in some cases "hip" could just be nothing more than advertising, packaging, and social media buzz.

On the home roasting front; I don't think there is a hip profile per se; just a lot of discussion on the "why's" and 'how's" of profiling. "Hot and fast", "low and slow for spro", "Rao declining ROR", (4-4-2), (4-6-2), dense beans, DP beans, honey process beans, low grown beans, etc. etc.
allenb
Hank,
It's unfortunate that certain levels of roasting (extreme light), where super-defined origin notes can be realized, are repeatedly butchered by many well meaning, "new wave" shops who lack knowledge in roasting and produce a tongue curling brew.
i remember my first experience with "specialty coffee" in the early 1980's in Boulder Colorado at the Boulder Brewing Market. They consistently roasted and brewed incredibly excellent super light roasted coffees that exhibited extremely complex origin notes along side a beefy bottom end and wine-like top end. This was done on a consistent basis for many years. The "newer wave" operations are trying to mimic this style of roasting but are not capable of pulling it off.

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
JoseP
If I recall correctly, a more conscious approach to coffee production is all third wave is. Nothing hipster about it. I don't see what tattoos, beards and skateboards has to do with coffee.

As far as profiling a roast and how one chooses to do so, well that's up to said roaster. I went from writing down temps every 15 seconds, to every 30, to every minute, downloading roast logger for graph visualization... Now I just write down yellow temp/time( different beans and loads yellow at different temps so using "300f" doesn't work for me. It's more like 320f tho)FirstCrack time/temp and end of roast. I found that keeping it simple allowed me to REALLY participate during the roast. Maybe when I get my trendy Quest, I'll add some more probes and artisan(all I have I BT) to drive myself crazy with, but I'll keep things simple for now.
BenKeith
Get you a copy of Rob Hoos's, Modulating The Flavor Profile of Coffee "One Roaster's Manifesto". You can find it for as little as $15 or so and can read it in a short time, big print and few pages. I thought it had a lot of junk rambling but it does have some pretty good info about profiling.
He is also very up front about using time, color and smell, not temps when profiling. Temps mean nothing except for the roaster they are being read in.

I use the TC4 with RoastLogger to control my air roaster because I can set it to hit each stage I want within seconds every time, so once I get the profile (time to color/smell) I want, I can repeat it almost exactly every time. If I want to increase/decrease a phase a certain number of seconds, I can to that precisely also.

My way of roasting has totally changed in the past couple of years and I have to say, very much to the better.
BenKeith
I guess I should have included this in my other post, but I laugh at those that bash PID roasting. I guess it's because they don't know or understand how to use one. I look at it like this, it's like comparing using a map or a GPS to drive through a large city you don't know. I'll take the GPS as long as it's up to date.

I use it, and love it. There is no way I could match the consistency I get with the TC4 and Roastlogger trying to manually control the roaster, been there, done that for a bunch of years.
I get a log with the Time, Temp, fan and heat setting every five seconds I can save and review. Which also has the PID settings at the bottom so if I want to change something, I know what I used and what I need to change it to.

Plus I also get a pretty little chart if I want to save it which I can use from a previous roast for my profile and it will copy it near dead on.

If you care about how your roast is doing, you don't just turn it on, let the PID do it's thing while you go do something else. You can do that, but you can also do that with a lot of manual controlled roasters if you are just wanting to "roast beans". A PID does let you pay more attention to how the roast is doing color and smell wise. While mine is roasting, I'm constantly sniffing the exhaust and if I get a smell I like, I just glance at the TC4 (that's easier than looking on computer) and make note of the time. Afterwards, I can look at the log and see exactly what the times, temp and setting where, letting me know exactly what I want to adjust if I want to try enhancing that particular phase.

Some of the old school, professional roasters that are doing numbers of batches day after day would probably laugh it you ask them to try a PID, but Illy, Maxwell House, Folgers and any of the large production roasters that have to depend on every batch being the same, would laugh if you ask them to roast without a PID.
Basically, there is no way you are going to consistently get the precision and ease of control a properly set up and operated PID is going to give.

I say it's like using the GPS versus a Map. A lot of people still use maps because they don't understand a GPS. However, a PID is also like a GPS in that, if you just program it and go, no telling where it's liable to take you before it gets you there, you have to pay attention to what it's doing.
JackH
Where do you see anyone bashing PID control in this post?
---Jack

KKTO Roaster.
BenKeith
Hankua posted:
Compare that to an operator who sets the pid at the drop temperature and picks up a paperback book or surfs the Internet waiting for the buzzer.

Tells me he doesn't really understand the benefits of a PID if used properly.
Edited by BenKeith on 10/02/2016 11:30 AM
snwcmpr
I didn't see the PID bashing, I read it more about the 'reading a book or surfs the internet' than bashing PID.
Kinda like driving while texting. You are only doing one or the other.
--------------
Backwoods Roaster
"I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast."

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".
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