Roast Color Nerdy... | [55] |
Espresso maker un... | [30] |
2 series heat gun... | [21] |
Bellwether Roaster | [21] |
Page 1 of 2: 12
|
Gene with Artisan and TC4
|
|
Masterkey |
Posted on 03/18/2017 5:52 AM
|
![]() Newbie ![]() Posts: 17 Joined: February 13, 2017 |
Hello, I plan to control the heater of my Cafe Gene with Artisan and a TC4. What do I need for that? I want to use the software-PID that is implemented in Artisan. Can I do that with a dimmer or a SSR? I have no zero cross detection already. What specification do the SSR or the dimmer need to contol it with the TC4? Is there a specification of the TC4? I have the version V7.00. Masterkey |
|
|
renatoa |
Posted on 03/18/2017 6:59 AM
|
![]() Administrator ![]() Posts: 2493 Joined: September 30, 2016 |
Is there available somewhere a controllable dimmer ? Actually both are using the same principle: modify the duty cycle. And do it right. The difference if that the dimmer do this at a finer level, synchronous with sinusoid zero cross, 100/120 times per second, while the SSR chop the power on-off more rough, 2-3 times per second. How do you plan to measure temperature in that decentered rotating drum? Roasters: DIY: TO based IR 640g
Moded commercial: Dieckmann RoestMeister, Nesco, popper(s). Electrics: TC4ESP, MS6514, USB/Artisan/Apps, PID controllers Grinders: Arco, Xeoleo ghost burrs, Krinder, vintage PeDe Dienes, MBK Feldgrind Brew: Flair, Kompresso, Rota Aeropress, Hario Cafeor dripper, Gaggia Mini |
|
|
Masterkey |
Posted on 03/18/2017 10:21 AM
|
![]() Newbie ![]() Posts: 17 Joined: February 13, 2017 |
I want to buy this one: http://www.conrad...ac-230-Vac If necessary I also will buy this addiation modul: http://cpc.farnel...dp/HK01172 Do you thing this will work? Or is it cheaper with an SSR? First I want to control the temperature not inside but on the inlet of the drum. |
|
|
renatoa |
Posted on 03/18/2017 11:50 AM
|
![]() Administrator ![]() Posts: 2493 Joined: September 30, 2016 |
The dimmer from conrad is manual control, not related to TC4 The additional module is controlled by a continuous voltage or a PWM signal, no idea if TC4 support any of them, all I learnt so far is about driving a SSR only. A SSR is cheaper than the dimmer from conrad, but you need the zero cross module for TC4 also. You want to control temperature based on ... which logic ? Does Artisan feature any Gene control module based on exhaust temp ? Roasters: DIY: TO based IR 640g
Moded commercial: Dieckmann RoestMeister, Nesco, popper(s). Electrics: TC4ESP, MS6514, USB/Artisan/Apps, PID controllers Grinders: Arco, Xeoleo ghost burrs, Krinder, vintage PeDe Dienes, MBK Feldgrind Brew: Flair, Kompresso, Rota Aeropress, Hario Cafeor dripper, Gaggia Mini |
|
|
Masterkey |
Posted on 03/18/2017 12:10 PM
|
![]() Newbie ![]() Posts: 17 Joined: February 13, 2017 |
What ist the OT1 Output of the TC4 when it is Artisan controled? I want to control the temperature with the integrated software PID. My idea is to record a temperature curve while i roaste manualy, and then let the roaster do it the same controled by the PID. |
|
|
renatoa |
Posted on 03/18/2017 12:20 PM
|
![]() Administrator ![]() Posts: 2493 Joined: September 30, 2016 |
You are right, I learnt something new, OT1 can be configured as a PWM control output. Still... using the two kemo components sounds more complicate and expensive than a SSR. Roasters: DIY: TO based IR 640g
Moded commercial: Dieckmann RoestMeister, Nesco, popper(s). Electrics: TC4ESP, MS6514, USB/Artisan/Apps, PID controllers Grinders: Arco, Xeoleo ghost burrs, Krinder, vintage PeDe Dienes, MBK Feldgrind Brew: Flair, Kompresso, Rota Aeropress, Hario Cafeor dripper, Gaggia Mini |
|
|
Masterkey |
Posted on 03/18/2017 3:50 PM
|
![]() Newbie ![]() Posts: 17 Joined: February 13, 2017 |
Here you can see that it is not necessary to use a zero cross detection if you would like to control a heater with a SSR: http://www.instru...ys-Theory/ How can I configure the OT1 output? |
|
|
renatoa |
Posted on 03/19/2017 2:57 PM
|
![]() Administrator ![]() Posts: 2493 Joined: September 30, 2016 |
For Artisan related stuff best is to contact user Marko, the real authority in this field.
Roasters: DIY: TO based IR 640g
Moded commercial: Dieckmann RoestMeister, Nesco, popper(s). Electrics: TC4ESP, MS6514, USB/Artisan/Apps, PID controllers Grinders: Arco, Xeoleo ghost burrs, Krinder, vintage PeDe Dienes, MBK Feldgrind Brew: Flair, Kompresso, Rota Aeropress, Hario Cafeor dripper, Gaggia Mini |
|
|
greencardigan |
Posted on 03/20/2017 6:15 PM
|
![]() 1 1/2 Pounder ![]() Posts: 1168 Joined: November 21, 2010 |
Quote Masterkey wrote: Hello, I plan to control the heater of my Cafe Gene with Artisan and a TC4. What do I need for that? I want to use the software-PID that is implemented in Artisan. Can I do that with a dimmer or a SSR? I have no zero cross detection already. What specification do the SSR or the dimmer need to contol it with the TC4? Is there a specification of the TC4? I have the version V7.00. Masterkey The TC4 can control a heater using a normal zero cross SSR. With this setup it will pulse the heater on and off. Or, if you use a zero cross detector, you can control the heater with a random fire SSR. I don't know about the Gene but I suspect the pulsed heater with normal SSR will be fine. Do you know what sketch is loaded onto your TC4? |
|
|
Masterkey |
Posted on 03/21/2017 12:30 PM
|
![]() Newbie ![]() Posts: 17 Joined: February 13, 2017 |
Yes I also think the pulsed heater with normal SSR will be ok. I have the new TC4 Version 7.00 ordered last month. I think there should be the newest sketch loaded onto the TC4. Or do you mean the Arduino sketch. I loaded aArtisanQ_PID_4_3 onto the Arduino Uno |
|
|
greencardigan |
Posted on 03/21/2017 5:43 PM
|
![]() 1 1/2 Pounder ![]() Posts: 1168 Joined: November 21, 2010 |
Yes I meant the Arduino Sketch. Version 4_3 is a bit old now and I think it requires a zero cross detector as it configured to do phase angle control only. Version 6_2_2 allows for slow PWM control of a heater connected to OT1. It still has a bug that affects the fan control frequency but I don't think you will be controlling a DC fan with the Gene. https://github.co..._6_2_2.zip Make sure you look at the Configuration Options pdf in the download as it will help you with setting the options in the user.h file. |
|
|
Masterkey |
Posted on 04/05/2018 12:10 PM
|
![]() Newbie ![]() Posts: 17 Joined: February 13, 2017 |
Hi, I have already considered whether I should create a new thread. It's been almost a year now and I didn't have time to realize my project yet. Now let's keep going. Briefly summarized: I want to control the heater of my cafe gene with a TC4 and an SSR. I want to use the artisan PID control. I have already installed two temperature sensors in the gene and connected them to the TC4. Now the next step is to install an SSR. I have a CRYDOM TD2425 (input 3-32V, ZCD, 25a) lying around. Does it work with the TC4? |
|
|
greencardigan |
Posted on 04/05/2018 6:50 PM
|
![]() 1 1/2 Pounder ![]() Posts: 1168 Joined: November 21, 2010 |
Yes, this SSR should be fine to switch the power to the element. Connect it to the OT1 connection on the TC4. |
|
|
BenKeith |
Posted on 04/05/2018 9:05 PM
|
![]() Pounder ![]() Posts: 485 Joined: April 21, 2014 |
Have you gotten your TC4? Unless Jim shows back up, or one the guys building them, You may need to look at other options. Will2 had a few he built, not sure what his plans are with those. Also, if you are just controlling the heater, that should be almost pure resistive load and you don't need a ZCD for that. |
|
|
Masterkey |
Posted on 07/26/2018 1:28 AM
|
![]() Newbie ![]() Posts: 17 Joined: February 13, 2017 |
@BenKeith: I have bought my TC4 last year. Does anybody know why Jims homepage is down? I have printed now a case for the arduino/TC4 and the SSR on my 3d printer and flashed the actual aArtisanQ_PID 6.3 on it. The thermocouples are connected and are working well. Now I want to set the parameters in the User.h file. I have some questions on it and it would be nice if someone can help me with the setup. Code Download source
|
|
|
greencardigan |
Posted on 07/27/2018 12:10 AM
|
![]() 1 1/2 Pounder ![]() Posts: 1168 Joined: November 21, 2010 |
Quote What is different between CONFIG_PWM and CONFIG_PAC3? I want to connect the SSR or the heater on OT1. Is CONFIG_PAC3 the right one? Have a look at the Configurations PDF that should be in the sketch directory. It depends how you are wanting to control the fan/blower mostly. The PAC modes are for doing Phase Angle control of an AC motor/blower. Quote I have 50Hz. Is it relevant for me? Yes, comment out the 60Hz line and re-enable the 50Hz line. Quote I have at the moment 2 thermocouples on TC1 and TC2. Does it makes sense to comment the TC3 and 4 out? No need to comment out the other lines. Quote Do I have to comment it out if I do not have a LCD? Probably comment it out but no real need to. Will save memory if you comment it out, but I don't think there are any memory issues at this stage. Quote I want to control with artisan roastoscope and not with standalone PID. What do i have to set here? If you are using the Artisan built in PID or no PID then you can comment out the #define PID_CONTROL line. However, it will still work correctly as is. Quote // Heater and Fan Limits/Options What do I have to set here? In the first step I will not control the FAN. You can limit the available output percentages for the OT1 and OT2 if desired. Otherwise just leave as is to permit any output level to be used. Quote Is there a documentation about the calibration? Do I need ist? I'm not aware of any documentation regarding the calibration but you could look through the code to see how they are used. I understand that they are used if you want to tweak the values being recorded by your thermocouples. For example if it was reading 102 degrees C in boiling water then you could adjust to get it to read 100. Quote // Time Base for slow PWM on OT1, OT2 What should I set here? This relates to the CONFIG_PWM mode chosen up the top. It changes the frequency of the PWM output pulses. For example, the default of 1Hz running at 50% power will turn your heater on full for 1/2 second then off for 1/2 second. Quote What should I set here? // Output Pin Setup Do I have to set something here? No, most likely you will leave this as defaults. Unless you want to change which output pins are being used. Quote // Set up parameters for the base configurations Ok, here I do not understand anything. What should I set here? No changes should be made here. This is just mapping output values to variables depending on the mode chosen up top. Quote // Phase Angle Control Options What should I set here? Probably leave as defaults. It relates to PAC modes and adjusts some control settings depending on the type of load being driven. |
|
|
JackH |
Posted on 07/27/2018 12:30 PM
|
![]() Administrator ![]() Posts: 1809 Joined: May 10, 2011 |
Thanks for your help with this Brad!![]() ---Jack
KKTO Roaster. |
|
|
Masterkey |
Posted on 07/28/2018 1:05 AM
|
![]() Newbie ![]() Posts: 17 Joined: February 13, 2017 |
Thank you, greencardigan! I will test the setup. Next step is to implement the electric to the roaster. |
|
|
renatoa |
Posted on 07/28/2018 2:46 AM
|
![]() Administrator ![]() Posts: 2493 Joined: September 30, 2016 |
Where are you placing the probes ? |
|
|
Masterkey |
Posted on 08/04/2018 6:46 AM
|
![]() Newbie ![]() Posts: 17 Joined: February 13, 2017 |
@renatoa: I placed to thermocouples near to the build in thermocouples in the gene. For the first I controll the heater outlet temperature. Now I build the hardware an did the first test. I set the PID Parameters with help from Chien, Hrones and Reswick ;-) But I have a problem while starting the PID-controller. While the controller ist starting it is starting with heater power 100%. So I get a high overshot because my parameters setting is very slow. Why does the heater starts with 100%. The SV is at a very low level at this time. Is there a possibility to give the heater power another startpoint?
Masterkey attached the following images:
|
|
|
renatoa |
Posted on 08/05/2018 1:37 AM
|
![]() Administrator ![]() Posts: 2493 Joined: September 30, 2016 |
This is the normal PID behaviour, if tuned using a canonic solution, tailored to provide response as fact as possible and minimal overshot. To address this we should think outside the standard PID tuning manuals... First, the low output start requires to have a P term small enough to provide the desired PWM for that SV level, and no more. Let's assume you want 40% for the first minute, and desired SV at the end of first minute is 80C, starting from ambient 20C. The P term will be (output = 40%) / (initial error 60 = 80-20 Celsius degrees)= 0.67. While the temperature will start to increase, the error will decrease, and also the output. For example, after 10 seconds, assuming the temperature increased to 40C, the error is now 80-40 = 40, thus the output will be 40 * 0.67 = 27% So we need to compensate the 13% difference with an appropriate I term contribution. The value of I term value is not so simple to calculate as P, we need an integral of all errors values, but, with some simplifications I think we can work with a average rough estimate instead integral, and calculate a 0.043 value for I term. Quite strange values compared with what we are familiar from the others setups, right? The problem is that using these values you can't go much further, not enough power due to small P term, and unstable because majoritar PWM will be provided by I term when you go past 80 degrees. That's because a single PID values set can't be used for the broad range of temperatures and continuous sliding setpoint we have in a coffee roasting process, thus compromises must be made, like a P big enough to drive the whole temperatures range, resulting too much heat in the charge. Already rant about this in the recent past, with other examples and arguments, you can find my posts if interested. A simple and almost immediate solution would be to change the TC4 PID code to newer PoM version of Brett, if you have programming skills. And no more use Artisan PID. This way the P term will be proportional with input, not with error, changing the paradigm... a lot ! ;) PS: the fact you are setting so small PID coefficients in Artisan and nothing change make me believe you are using TC4 PID, not Artisan PID... to address this, there is a checkbox in Device dialog. Edited by renatoa on 08/05/2018 4:40 AM Roasters: DIY: TO based IR 640g
Moded commercial: Dieckmann RoestMeister, Nesco, popper(s). Electrics: TC4ESP, MS6514, USB/Artisan/Apps, PID controllers Grinders: Arco, Xeoleo ghost burrs, Krinder, vintage PeDe Dienes, MBK Feldgrind Brew: Flair, Kompresso, Rota Aeropress, Hario Cafeor dripper, Gaggia Mini |
|
|
Masterkey |
Posted on 08/06/2018 5:28 AM
|
![]() Newbie ![]() Posts: 17 Joined: February 13, 2017 |
Hello, thank you for your detailed answer. Yeah, that's probably true. A PID controller is a universal controller and there are 1000 ways to set it. Depending on what you want. But for now, I'm gonna use this one. But thanks for the tip for the version of Brett. I'll test that one day. I use Artisan's PID and not TC4's. The low values for P-I-D work very well with my roaster. The problem is only the start with 100% at the beginning. But I don't always have that problem. If I close Artisan before starting and open it again, the heating starts with 0% and slowly regulates upwards. Then the curve looks very good. But when I roast twice in a row the heating starts with 100% at the second roast. If you look at the picture again: The SV value at the beginning is 56, The BT is 50, so the error is very small. The heating should therefore start with a low output. Is there a problem that the PID values are not reset? If you then have small PID setting parameters and regulate very slowly, this has greater effects than if you have large values. |
|
|
greencardigan |
Posted on 08/06/2018 6:07 AM
|
![]() 1 1/2 Pounder ![]() Posts: 1168 Joined: November 21, 2010 |
What version of Artisan are you using? I think there was an issue with background follow in version 1.1. |
|
|
renatoa |
Posted on 08/06/2018 6:10 AM
|
![]() Administrator ![]() Posts: 2493 Joined: September 30, 2016 |
Could be I term accumulated and not reset... One more reason to use TC4 PID, you can program on Artisan Start button a PID;RESET command to be sent to TC4. Also the loop is much faster, 300ms compared to 1-2 seconds for Artisan. |
|
|
Masterkey |
Posted on 08/06/2018 9:08 AM
|
![]() Newbie ![]() Posts: 17 Joined: February 13, 2017 |
I am using Artisan 1.3.1 Ok, I will test PID on TC4. Do I have to change the settings in user.h for this or does the TC4 gets the PID settings from Artisan? And I have to select the PID Firmware checkbox. |
|
Jump to Forum: |
Thread | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
---|---|---|---|
Artisan Buttons Set Sliders and Graph Markers to "0" | ROASTING SOFTWARE APPS | 7 | 03/20/2023 8:12 AM |
Artisan Fan Slider Calibration | ROASTING SOFTWARE APPS | 18 | 03/16/2023 7:50 AM |
Raspberry+artisan | Bread Machine Roasters | 8 | 03/08/2023 1:06 PM |
Artisan Arduino PWM 4-20mA for Power Settings | ROASTING SOFTWARE APPS | 28 | 02/01/2023 9:21 AM |
What has changed in artisan 2.8.2 | ROASTING SOFTWARE APPS | 13 | 01/23/2023 8:20 PM |