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(Paper Filters and the) Moccamaster KB -- Maybe a new one.
snwcmpr
(See page 2 for the latest update)

Flavor from every other coffee maker I have is better than the Technivorm now. It is, I think, 10 years old. I tested water temp just under the sprayhead. 190? F at the most. 180? is the usual.
Letting the basket fill I get 186?.
I have run citric acid through several times. Rinsed several times, the carafe shows no sediment at all after any of the above.
My water is very good water.

I suspect it is time. But, not a BV. I think 10 years with a Technivorm tells me to do it again.
I think this one, but am still looking. We only make enough for one cup each. Rarely does the coffee set on the burner.
KB Brushed Silver
Model: 59691
https://us.moccam...ilver.html

Any thoughts?
I asked Technivorm USA, and expect an answer today about fixing it.

Thanks,
Ken
Edited by snwcmpr on 10/18/2018 8:34 AM
--------------
Backwoods Roaster
"I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast."

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".
 
renatoa
The temperature don't look excessive low for me, I am preparing V60 and aeropress for years using 84-88C water, so same ballpark.
92-93C = 197-198F is for espresso, not for brew, too much bitter is extracted, according to my palate.
 
ChicagoJohn

Quote

renatoa wrote:

The temperature don't look excessive low for me, I am preparing V60 and aeropress for years using 84-88C water, so same ballpark.
92-93C = 197-198F is for espresso, not for brew, too much bitter is extracted, according to my palate.


I agree. The 186?F should be fine. I'm usually in the 175 - 185?F range and find, like renatoa says, more bitterness at, say 200?F+. I think you also get more caffeine with hotter water as well.
So many beans; so little time....
 
snwcmpr
I agree, should be fine.

But, the flavor is not coming out of coffee that obviously has the flavor because other methods work better.
Any ideas of a fix?
--------------
Backwoods Roaster
"I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast."

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".
 
renatoa
Seems that the boffins of coffee have a different image about what should be the best in my cup, so I can't argue more...

"The ideal brew
According to the Specialty Coffee Association of America (SCAA) there is an ideal method for making coffee, called the Golden Cup Award, which will scientifically yield favorable and repeatable results. You should use between 3.25 and 4.25 ounces of coffee grounds per 64 ounces of water (90-120 grams of coffee to 1.9 litres of water). The water temperature must be at 200 degrees Fahrenheit (+ or - 2; that's equivalent to 93 Celcius) when it comes in contact with the grounds. "

https://www.cnet....feemakers/

1:18 ratio would led to a colored water, not coffee, imo.

If the above is the definition of a "golden cup", then why the standard SCAE cupping methods are using different figures ?
 
ChicagoJohn

Quote

snwcmpr wrote:

I agree, should be fine.

But, the flavor is not coming out of coffee that obviously has the flavor because other methods work better.
Any ideas of a fix?


Of course grind is a factor in extraction in addition to temperature and time. Finer grind, in addition to increasing surface-to-volume ratio of the coffee, would also perhaps slow the rate of extraction and both effects might increase extraction at a constant temperature. So you might try a finer grind and see what happens.
So many beans; so little time....
 
snwcmpr
It is hard to write all of what I have done. I really have covered all of the bases and discovered the water temp issue to be the issue that is NOT correct.
If I go too much finer on the grind it slows the brew to a point of almost choking the paper.
The issue I am trying to discuss here is how to fix the water temp.

Thanks for the help,
Ken
--------------
Backwoods Roaster
"I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast."

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".
 
snwcmpr
OOOPS!
I deleted the original post.

Quote

Flavor from every other coffee maker I have is better than the Technivorm now. It is, I think, 10 years old. I tested water temp just under the sprayhead. 190? F at the most. 180? is the usual.
Letting the basket fill I get 186?.
I have run citric acid through several times. Rinsed several times, the carafe shows no sediment at all after any of the above.
My water is very good water.

I suspect it is time. But, not a BV. I think 10 years with a Technivorm tells me to do it again.
I think this one, but am still looking. We only make enough for one cup each. Rarely does the coffee set on the burner.
KB Brushed Silver
Model: 59691
https://us.moccam...ilver.html

Any thoughts?
I asked Technivorm USA, and expect an answer today about fixing it.

Thanks,
Ken


And I got a reply from Technivorm.

Quote

Hi Ken,
Your brewer must bring water to boiling in order to successfully operate. At sea level, with boiling at 212F, the water in the basket will always measure 196-205F with a wired-probe thermometer, and a full 75 grams of ground coffee. If the brewer cannot bring the water to boil, it will not complete a brew cycle, and the water will remain in the water reservoir.

Since your brewer is still operating, rest assured it is brewing just as it did the day you brought it home. I hope this explains the operation of your brewer a little.

Kind regards,

Ari | Technivorm Moccamaster USA | Portland, OR | Office 855.662.2200| www.moccamaster.com

https://www.instagram.com/moccamaster_usa/
https://www.facebook.com/technivorm.moccamaster.usa

--------------
Backwoods Roaster
"I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast."

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".
 
renatoa
Maybe they mean the temperature in the boiling chamber, but not at the 9 holes exhaust, because is a long path for water, through the glass transfer tube and outlet arm, enough to lose some 5 degrees.
Note that the glass transfer tube is in the middle of cool water reservoir, another good reason to lose some degrees...

Check picture below:

https://cdn.shopi...1477935965
 
snwcmpr
I am thinking it is losing more than 5 degrees.
186? F is not close to 196 - 205.
--------------
Backwoods Roaster
"I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast."

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".
 
renatoa
I am thinking in Celsius, so double the figure for ?F.
 
snwcmpr
Oh, yes, now as you say it, it is so obvious.

I put a wire probe up into the cross member. It is in the proper range at the point of discharge.
I have been running 3-4 oz of water into a cup before putting the basket under the spout. I will run more to get the crossmember hotter.

I do have enough extraction, and the coffee has flavor, but the nuances are not there. It is present in other brewing methods, so it is not the coffee.

I am now thinking any drip is less than the other methods.

Ken
--------------
Backwoods Roaster
"I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast."

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".
 
JackH
Fixed your first post Ken.
---Jack

KKTO Roaster.
 
allenb

Quote

renatoa wrote:

Note that the glass transfer tube is in the middle of cool water reservoir, another good reason to lose some degrees...




The Technivorm runs its water tube within another sleeve to prevent loss to the room temperature water in the reservoir.
allenb attached the following image:
capture_8.png

1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
allenb

Quote

ChicagoJohn wrote:

Quote

renatoa wrote:

The temperature don't look excessive low for me, I am preparing V60 and aeropress for years using 84-88C water, so same ballpark.
92-93C = 197-198F is for espresso, not for brew, too much bitter is extracted, according to my palate.


I agree. The 186?F should be fine. I'm usually in the 175 - 185?F range and find, like renatoa says, more bitterness at, say 200?F+. I think you also get more caffeine with hotter water as well.


I had a chance to do a lot of experimentation with effects on flavor using different water temperatures while working at a roastery years ago. While one can achieve a good tasting cup with water less than 195 F, there are necessary flavor constituents that will not be extracted adequately when going below the ideal temperature. On the other hand, brewing with lower temperatures has the ability to mask negative cup notes from roast defects giving the appearance that lower temperatures brew a better cup.

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
snwcmpr

Quote

allenb wrote:
I had a chance to do a lot of experimentation with effects on flavor using different water temperatures while working at a roastery years ago. While one can achieve a good tasting cup with water less than 195 F, there are necessary flavor constituents that will not be extracted adequately when going below the ideal temperature. On the other hand, brewing with lower temperatures has the ability to mask negative cup notes from roast defects giving the appearance that lower temperatures brew a better cup.

Allen

Thank you.

And as a humorous addition:
Lower temp water can make me look like a better roaster. :)

Ken
--------------
Backwoods Roaster
"I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast."

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".
 
ChicagoJohn

Quote

snwcmpr wrote:


Thank you.

And as a humorous addition:
Lower temp water can make me look like a better roaster. :)

Ken


It has worked very well for me. greenman
So many beans; so little time....
 
renatoa
... as dark roasts are to equalize the quality of the beans ... Grin
 
ChicagoJohn

Quote


I had a chance to do a lot of experimentation with effects on flavor using different water temperatures while working at a roastery years ago. While one can achieve a good tasting cup with water less than 195 F, there are necessary flavor constituents that will not be extracted adequately when going below the ideal temperature. On the other hand, brewing with lower temperatures has the ability to mask negative cup notes from roast defects giving the appearance that lower temperatures brew a better cup.

Allen


Recalling your comments while working on a problem I was having getting acceptable results from a new yirg-z sample, I did some experiments at 195?F and like the results much better across several SO's and roasting profiles I use. I'd retained the 175-180?F water temperature when I transitioned from an Aeropress to my current stirred immersion slurry / paperless cone filter method a couple years ago. I will be using 195?F now going forward.

Thanks so much for sharing your experience!
So many beans; so little time....
 
snwcmpr
Moccamaster is still not my fav brewer. It is now just the easiest.
The only other difference, other than water temp, is the filter. A No 4 Natural paper, washed in hot water before the brew.
It is the only brewer that I use those filters.

Hario V60 with No 2 (?) natural paper from Japan is an awesome cup. We just proved it again this morning.
Chemex, awesome. Natural paper, washed before use.
Bialetti Stainless version, awesome.
--------------
Backwoods Roaster
"I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast."

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".
 
ChicagoJohn

Quote

snwcmpr wrote:

Moccamaster is still not my fav brewer. It is now just the easiest.
The only other difference, other than water temp, is the filter. A No 4 Natural paper, washed in hot water before the brew.
It is the only brewer that I use those filters.

Hario V60 with No 2 (?) natural paper from Japan is an awesome cup. We just proved it again this morning.
Chemex, awesome. Natural paper, washed before use.
Bialetti Stainless version, awesome.


I've read that paper filters remove cafestol, a substance that reportedly can elevate LDL levels in the blood. Based upon your recommendation I have ordered a pack of Hario #2 natural paper filters and will wash them before use as you say. I think they should work OK with my paperless SS cone filter but if not I'll just buy a Hario V60. Thanks! (Just had my annual physical two weeks ago and my LDL was elevated so this will be a good thing to do.)
Edited by ChicagoJohn on 08/07/2018 11:01 AM
So many beans; so little time....
 
renatoa
The 2012 article source of this info:
https://www.scien...6912002360

"Filtered coffees such as drip-filter and soluble coffee contain negligible levels of cafestol in the brew, as the paper filter in drip filtered coffee retains the diterpenes and in soluble coffee the diterpenes are retained with the grounds during production..."
...followed by a link to a 1997 paid article, the real source of the paper properties related to cafestol.
 
ChicagoJohn

Quote

snwcmpr wrote:

Hario V60 with No 2 (?) natural paper from Japan is an awesome cup.


Received my No 2 Hario V60 natural filters and they fit my SS paperless cone perfectly. Now I won't have to be concerned about cafestol, no negatives at all -- flavor and filtration rates the same -- and clean-up is now much easier. I'll be using these from now on. Thanks again.
So many beans; so little time....
 
snwcmpr
Update:
I have been using the 'Hemp' filter. Rinsing it in hot water, then drying it by hanging.
The flavor of the coffee is there, again.
So... Conclusion ... the paper filter is the culprit.

I took the box out of the drawer and saw it was a different brand than we usually use. I had thought that brown unbleached filters would all be the same. NOT!!
It was these ... https://www.ifyou...e-filters/

Since we stopped using them the coffee machine brews flavorful coffee.

Yeah buddy!

Ken in NC
--------------
Backwoods Roaster
"I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast."

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".
 
CK
As a sidenote, you may not want to continue using citric acid descalers as they can leave a bad taste in the machine according to the manufacturer. See the subtitle descaling;
https://www.mocca...vice/faqs/
Edited by CK on 11/01/2019 11:30 AM
 
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