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New from GC I'm looking for the starting profiles
pandiani
Top  #1 Print Post
Posted on 09/12/2018 12:34 AM
To read there is a lot, and I read a lot, discussions on profiles there are, but each one says its (rightly) for the size of the bean, for the sake of drinking coffee (city, full city, Vienna, etc.) . In two days I get the new roaster, Gene, before I used a popper modified by me, thanks to the help of some of you on this forum, in fact I could control the temperature and ventilation but, at most I could cook 80 grams of beans at a time ... few, and now I think, I hope, I've had enough experience to drive this that seems to be a great roaster machine for green beans.
I purchased some:
Monsoon Malabar Arabica Green Coffee Beans,
Colombian Decaffeinated Mountain Water Process Ethiopian Sidamo,
Cuba Serrano Lavado
Colombian Decaffeinated Mountain Water Process
Vietnam Robusta Dragons Balls
Do you have any advice on the profiles to use, so as not to ruin the first batches of coffee?
A starting line I mean.
For example, set 30 minutes at 250 celsius, and then decide when to lower the temperature and turn off, or set 16 or 18 minutes at 220 and I do everything to the Gene?
Preheat?
I love a light coffee, city, I'm Italian, but I do not like burned coffee.
Normally I reached the 1C ended and as I felt the first shots of the 2C I cooled, sometimes knowing the times, I came to cool just before 2C.
Sorry for the many questions and I trust in your answers.
Thank you
 
renatoa
Top  #2 Print Post
Posted on 09/12/2018 12:54 AM
Check this thread for the universal roast recipe.
https://forum.hom...post_66687

Please be aware though that "set mm minutes at CCC celsius" in Gene language can fool you... is not exactly what some people understand.
When you set a temperature on Gene display, it actually means: "start blowing constant 250 C hot air into glass cylinder, until the exhausted air temperature reach CCC, then keep there by pulsing hot air heater on-off (200-250 C) for mm minutes"
 
pandiani
Top  #3 Print Post
Posted on 09/12/2018 3:02 AM

Quote

renatoa wrote:

Check this thread for the universal roast recipe.
https://forum.hom...post_66687

Please be aware though that "set mm minutes at CCC celsius" in Gene language can fool you... is not exactly what some people understand.
When you set a temperature on display, it actually means: "start blowing constant 250 C hot air into glass cylinder, until the exhausted air temperature reach CCC, then keep there by pulsing hot air heater on-off (200-250 C) for mm minutes"


Very interesting, thank you

Basically, this magic profile is a starting temperature of around 325F to 400F (163-204C), and a ramp up to around 450F to 480F(232-250C) in around 6 to 8 minutes, and holding it steady there to the end of the roast, whenever that may occur.

I don't understand, the initial temperature 400F (163-204C) is the one we must have before putting the beans inside and then reach 450 480 F (232-250C) in 6 8 minutes and stay there until the end.
Did I get it right? If this is the case, the starting temperature is not too high, do not we dry it too quickly?
Edited by pandiani on 09/12/2018 4:12 AM
 
renatoa
Top  #4 Print Post
Posted on 09/12/2018 6:14 AM
Yep, every Gene owner I know will tell the same, you must preheat, even if the manufacturer claims the contrary...

Actually, the professional drum roasters behave the same, they are preheat in the same range of temperatures (170-200 C) and beans are loaded with a single push of a knob, without the heat loss you experience by removing/loading the glass cylinder.

You can watch a full roast clip on youtube, with preheat, and see the yellowing moment, anything between 3 and 6 minutes is within limits, according to collective knowledge and Artisan software code too:

Code Download source  

        #CHECK CONDITIONS

        #if dry phase time < 3 mins (180 seconds) or less than 26% of the total time

        #  => ShortDryingPhase

        #if dry phase time > 6 mins or more than 40% of the total time

        #  => LongDryingPhase
 
pandiani
Top  #5 Print Post
Posted on 09/12/2018 1:14 PM
My Genie arrives tomorrow.
Question, is it really so hard to hear the 1 and 2 Crack on this roaster?
Only a stethoscope can help me?
Other tips in general?
 
rroehrig
Top  #6 Print Post
Posted on 09/13/2018 6:23 AM
Yes, the Gene Cafe is a very quiet machine and extremely hard to hear first and second cracks. I have tried a lot of things to help solve this and the easiest and least expensive is to take a cardboard paper towel holder tube and use it like a stethoscope. Seems to work best at the exhaust end since the lopsided moving glass container revovles unevenly. I have ungraded my cardboard tube to a plastic tube that I found laying in a construction dumpter near some new homes on our street. Works pretty good, but you still have to listen closely. Looks a little strange when doing this, but it works.
 
renatoa
Top  #7 Print Post
Posted on 09/13/2018 6:24 AM
The minute before FC you can see an increase in chaff exfoliating, another warn sign I am aware...
Actually there can't be chaff without FC, so increase in chaff presence could be the sign of FC start in the inner layers of the beans pile, that aren't indeed audible even on the most silent machines.
 
pandiani
Top  #8 Print Post
Posted on 09/13/2018 9:01 AM
I would say two good news, the cardboard towel tube is really interesting, as well as the increase of the chaff.
But without the chaff collector it is possible to hear them better, or the chaff invades us.
Consider that I am used to a popper to roast my green beans, and I am normally invaded by the chaff, but I am used to only 80 gr. of beans at a time, here we talk about the triple beans (250 gr.) and therefore also the triple of chaff .....
Hummm I think it's not a good idea to remove the chaff collectorGrin
 
renatoa
Top  #9 Print Post
Posted on 09/13/2018 10:14 AM
Roast outdoor ... or exhaust on a window with a tube...
 
pandiani
Top  #10 Print Post
Posted on 09/13/2018 11:25 PM
for Robusta and decaffeinated we have the same temperatures and times as the arabica?
Same procedure?
 
pandiani
Top  #11 Print Post
Posted on 09/14/2018 6:59 AM
I'm disappointed with my first roast
Let's start by saying that my Gene does not seem to heat up quickly, in fact I did a test to see how long it reached 250 C, well I stopped at 236 C after 11 minutes.
I tried to roast thinking that with the heat of the beans everything was easier .... negative.
Then preheated to 150 C put the beans and set the temperature in the meantime fell 100 C quickly arrive again at 150C in 1 minute and keep up to the minute 5,
my path would like to be this: 150C (300F) for 5 minutes
230 (446F) until 9:00, 240C (465F) until 10:30, 250C (482F) until 13:30, 235C (456F) until and of roast.

here instead my temp. and min.
5:30 169C (336F)
6.00 183C (361F)
6:30 191C
7.00 198C
7:30 202C
8.00 206C
8:30 210C
9:00 213C must be 230C (446F)
9:30 216C
10:00 218C
10:30 220 C (428F) must be 240C (465F)
11:00 223C
12:00 227C
13:30 235C (455F) must be 235C (456F)
17:30 243C maximum temperature reached a
18:00 I go down to 235 C
at 19:30 I turn off for fear of burning.
Without considering that I did not hear any crack and I had a stethoscope.
Where am I wrong? Why does not my Gene heat up?
two photos of my bad roast.
I am very angry, and disappointed
pandiani attached the following images:
foto1.jpg foto2.jpg
Edited by pandiani on 09/14/2018 8:27 AM
 
renatoa
Top  #12 Print Post
Posted on 09/14/2018 10:31 AM
They look good enough for me, a roast must be tasted first, don't disappoint based on look only.
Don't be obsessed for unevenness, it is not a defect ! some people appreciate uneven roast more than a flat perfection.
Also, any roasting should be groomed to remove quakers, they are even in the $$/pound beans.

What worry me is the long time required to achieve this roast... this is also a reason of FC missing, the longer the roast, the silent is FC, because it's actually a bake instead a roast.
And a bake can be only tasted, not detect visually.

So I would preheat more vigorously, at least 175C, and lower the quantity, until you hear FC at most at minute 12, and finish at 15.
Edited by renatoa on 09/14/2018 10:44 AM
 
pandiani
Top  #13 Print Post
Posted on 09/16/2018 9:33 AM
nothing to do, the temperature in my opinion rises too slowly. Never went beyond 232C among other things 232C in 18:30 .... Note that I have preheated to 175C for 5 min and both today and Friday I toasted Ethiopia Sidamo gr2
pandiani attached the following image:
img_20180916_162653688.jpg
Edited by pandiani on 09/16/2018 9:39 AM
 
ChicagoJohn
Top  #14 Print Post
Posted on 09/16/2018 11:40 AM

Quote

pandiani wrote:

nothing to do, the temperature in my opinion rises too slowly. Never went beyond 232C among other things 232C in 18:30 .... Note that I have preheated to 175C for 5 min and both today and Friday I toasted Ethiopia Sidamo gr2


I use an air roasting process and as I understand it your device uses hot air. The air temperatures for a roast intended for espresso that I do in ?C are as follows: Start of 1C at 8 minutes 199?C, start of 2C at 12 minutes 218?C. Realize that these temperatures are taken in the fluidized bean mass and the thermocouple(s) in your equipment are likely at the air inlet, but if I'm interpreting your data table correctly, it seems very much in line with what I routinely see. I realize there are differences in how the beans are being stirred and mixed in the two processes, but I'm not sure why you think it's not getting hot enough. 250?C is above the autoignition point of many organic materials and I would be surprised if a commercial machine would be designed to reach those levels.
So many beans; so little time....
 
renatoa
Top  #15 Print Post
Posted on 09/16/2018 12:09 PM
Gene TC is placed to measure hot air exhausted through the bean mass.

250C is the temperature of hot air at the RC input, and it gradually decrease down to 230 C at the other end of the roast chamber/cylinder.

coffeetime.wdfiles.com/local--files/gene-cafe-dimmer-control-modification/gradient.png

When a programmed (exhaust) temperature is reached, the heater is pulsed pretty rough (on-off) to maintain the exhaust temperature.
 
pandiani
Top  #16 Print Post
Posted on 09/16/2018 12:32 PM

Quote

ChicagoJohn wrote:

but I'm not sure why you think it's not getting hot enough. 250?C is above the autoignition point of many organic materials and I would be surprised if a commercial machine would be designed to reach those levels.


Hi John, and thank you for your interest.
I think I understand that the temperatures I found in various profiles refer to the temperature of the air and not the bean, and not having the GC a thermocouple that can tell me the temperature of the beans I understand that those who used it before me it is adjusted according to the display that marks the temperature to plot a profile.
What I do not understand is the ramp of a couple of very similar profiles from which I decided to leave, I mean, a profile that I use is:
Profile: 150 ? C for 5 mins f drying, 230 ? C until 9:00, 240 ? C until 10:30, 250 ? C until 13:30, 235 ? C until and of roast.
Now my doubt comes from here, after 5 mins I have to raise the temperature to 230 ? C until the minute 9:00 where I pass at 240 ? C, and at min. 10:30 raise again to 250 ? C, (it is understood that we talk about air temperature) this means that my car should have reached 230 ? C per minute 9 and then raise it to 240 ? C, instead I am only at 208 ? C, and at 10:30 minute, when I should be at 240 ? C and raise to 250 ? C, I'm only at 213 ? C. In addition to this I still can not hear well the 1 C because the car is quite silent, although today I seemed to hear about the minute 15: 00.
I do not think my roasts should last 19:00 minutes, I'm wrong?
So that this profile downloaded from the forum download is just for a Sidamo gr 2 and for a Gene Caff? machine, like mine
 
renatoa
Top  #17 Print Post
Posted on 09/16/2018 12:55 PM
What you preset on display (230) is the desired temperature, while 208 is the actual temperature it was been able to achieve.
If there isn't anything wrong with heater and TC, this discrepancy usually points to overloaded machine, or clogged chaff filter.
Check filter or try less beans next time.
 
pandiani
Top  #18 Print Post
Posted on 09/16/2018 1:07 PM

Quote

renatoa wrote:

What you preset on display (230) is the desired temperature, while 208 is the actual temperature it was been able to achieve.
If there isn't anything wrong with heater and TC, this discrepancy usually points to overloaded machine, or clogged chaff filter.
Check filter or try less beans next time.


GC bought new, clean without anything dirty.
After I checked with a meter to the electrical outlet and everything is in order.
I repeated a test without beans twice and this time I hit the desired temperatures in full. But with the beans inside, the temperature is normally higher or lower?
 
ChicagoJohn
Top  #19 Print Post
Posted on 09/16/2018 1:14 PM

Quote


I do not think my roasts should last 19:00 minutes, I'm wrong?
So that this profile downloaded from the forum download is just for a Sidamo gr 2 and for a Gene Caff? machine, like mine


I think you're right about the time interval being too long, and I can see the difficulty too in not being able to easily hear 1st and 2nd crack onsets. I'll be interested learning how this is resolved with input from others who use this roaster.
So many beans; so little time....
 
renatoa
Top  #20 Print Post
Posted on 09/17/2018 12:44 AM

Quote

pandiani wrote:

...But with the beans inside, the temperature is normally higher or lower?


Should be higher, because airflow is limited by the beans.
That's why when exit is full of chaff you have fire risk.
But you can't measure inside temperature, what you see on display is exhaust temp.

Would be better if designers provide also an input TC, and a low hysteresis thermostat...
 
ChicagoJohn
Top  #21 Print Post
Posted on 09/17/2018 6:50 AM

Quote

renatoa wrote:

Quote

pandiani wrote:

...But with the beans inside, the temperature is normally higher or lower?


Should be higher, because airflow is limited by the beans.
That's why when exit is full of chaff you have fire risk.
But you can't measure inside temperature, what you see on display is exhaust temp.

Would be better if designers provide also an input TC, and a low hysteresis thermostat...


Wow... If that's the case, I wonder if there would be a way to install a small bead K thermocouple into the hot air inlet that you could at least monitor with separate digital meter. The temperature difference between inlet and outlet would then be an indication of potential blockages; e.g., chaff.
So many beans; so little time....
 
John Despres
Top  #22 Print Post
Posted on 09/17/2018 7:01 AM
Good morning!

The temperature of hot air inlet of the GC won't be much help. It's one temp all the time. The heater cycles on and off to maintain your chosen temp.

J
Respect the bean.
John Despres
Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers.
 
Web
John Despres
Top  #23 Print Post
Posted on 09/17/2018 7:05 AM

Quote

renatoa wrote:

Check this thread for the universal roast recipe.
https://forum.hom...post_66687

Please be aware though that "set mm minutes at CCC celsius" in Gene language can fool you... is not exactly what some people understand.
When you set a temperature on Gene display, it actually means: "start blowing constant 250 C hot air into glass cylinder, until the exhausted air temperature reach CCC, then keep there by pulsing hot air heater on-off (200-250 C) for mm minutes"


Yep, there it is... Should have read the thread first

J
Respect the bean.
John Despres
Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers.
 
Web
renatoa
Top  #24 Print Post
Posted on 09/17/2018 7:19 AM

Quote

John Despres wrote:

Good morning!

The temperature of hot air inlet of the GC won't be much help. It's one temp all the time. The heater cycles on and off to maintain your chosen temp.

J


That's the next step of those brave enough to mod Gene: install a power variator on the heater ! Grin
If you was been able to teardown to the heater level, in order to place an ET TC, then adding a variable power box on the relay contacts is not rocketry...
 
pandiani
Top  #25 Print Post
Posted on 09/17/2018 9:04 AM
In fact I had read but among the many information read, and the translation ... (I'm Italian) probably something I lost on the street.
For me it is not missile ... much moreGrin
knowing that the temperature is the one that blows at the exit of the room (discharge temperature) I can not understand why the difference between what you pre-select on the display (230) is the desired temperature, while 208 is the actual temperature that was in able to reach, this with beans inside, (230gr.), while with the empty room doing a test, I managed to hit the temperatures and times of the profile (which I enclose below)
pandiani attached the following image:
foto_profilo.jpg
 
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