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Ametek Motor -Speed Control / Arduino Control???
madhatter349
First time posting, but long time lurker of these forums ever since I got the idea of joining the fluid bed community.

I am in the midst of building a tri clamp fluid bed roaster, with many brick walls hit. On the recommendations of this forum I bought a 2 stage Ametek motor 116392-01 but can't seem to figure out how to control it properly.

First I tried one of the cheap speed controllers https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07...B07T9BLJ7L - No go, didn't work well.

Then I tried 2000w AC motor controller, only turned on when knob was around 65%, eventually blew the triac I believe somehow when plugging in my element on same outlet.

Then I tried the Arduino route, bought 2 RobotDYN PWM Ac Programmable Light Dimmer modules, blew the triac one one, and then 30+ hours in, realized I was using the wrong SSR and needed a random fire and not zero cross...... Waiting on my random fire ssr's to be delivered (it seems like none for sale on amazon are random fire)


I know the ametek motors are quite recommended here, maybe I just missed reading, but im curious how most people are effectively controlling their motor speed, manually or arduino (not TC4)?

Thanks
Edited by JackH on 10/26/2020 9:03 AM
renatoa
The amazon controller is a voltage controller, by chopping the sine, as any dimmer.
It is clearly stated to be used for universal brush motors, not on brushless type (inductive) motors.

The 2000W controller is basically the same thing, as working principle.

TC4 PAC control method is the same as the two above controllers.

For both, if the Ametek motor is inductive (brushless), the behaviour should be: off until a given %, 65% in your case, 40% for others in a post some days ago, then some variation in a very narrow range (1-2%), then full on, if no load. The 65% percent level can vary when a variable load is applied.

If my above assumptions are correct, your motor is brushless, whose speed control are more complicate and sophisticated... there are many methods to do this, but none is easy, you can read more here:
https://www.electricaleasy.com/2014/0...motor.html

However, this guy seem found the right controller, check here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkXOy...kXOy0rNZ70
...even if his explanations are contradictory... from what I found there is nothing variable frequency in that controller, is a SCR/dimmer as you already have...

Please also notice that on Ametek site the variable speed blowers are a separate section, this model could be fixed speed.
madhatter349

Quote

renatoa wrote:

The amazon controller is a voltage controller, by chopping the sine, as any dimmer.
It is clearly stated to be used for universal brush motors, not on brushless type (inductive) motors.

The 2000W controller is basically the same thing, as working principle.

TC4 PAC control method is the same as the two above controllers.

For both, if the Ametek motor is inductive (brushless), the behaviour should be: off until a given %, 65% in your case, 40% for others in a post some days ago, then some variation in a very narrow range (1-2%), then full on, if no load. The 65% percent level can vary when a variable load is applied.

If my above assumptions are correct, your motor is brushless, whose speed control are more complicate and sophisticated... there are many methods to do this, but none is easy, you can read more here:
https://www.electricaleasy.com/2014/0...motor.html

However, this guy seem found the right controller, check here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dkXOy...kXOy0rNZ70
...even if his explanations are contradictory... from what I found there is nothing variable frequency in that controller, is a SCR/dimmer as you already have...

Please also notice that on Ametek site the variable speed blowers are a separate section, this model could be fixed speed.



Thank you for the detailed response!
I was under the assumption the ametek 116392-00 & 116392-01 are brushed not brushless... Maybe I was wrong.

People here have used the identical ametek blower, some I see use a DC motor controller, but for the ones that don't, I can't seem to figure out what I am doing wrong....
Gullygossner
This might be what you're after for controlling the blower if you're powering it via AC

https://www.tindie.com/products/bugro...120v-240v/

I'm not certain with this blower but many can be powered by AC or DC power so that may be why you are seeing done folks using DC controllers. If you were to go the dc control route, you would have to feed the blower DC power as well.
Edited by JackH on 10/26/2020 9:04 AM
renatoa
The above board is using the same control principle as those discussed above, i.e. sine chopping, aka dimmer.
I don't expect to see any change in the Ametek motor behaviour vs previous attempts.

I can suggest you another approach that worked for me, but... again, was a brushed motor ! A/C 220V, but brushed !
Setup: TC4 compiled using CONFIG_PAC2 power control mode, and RobotDyn board.
You will connect the motor on heater output, so will be controlled with an on-off sequence of full half sines, using ICC method, instead chopped sine, as is doing a normal dimmer. Or OT2 output and PAC...
Curious to hear how your motor behave powered this way.
madhatter349

Quote

Gullygossner wrote:

This might be what you're after for controlling the blower if you're powering it via AC

https://www.tindie.com/products/bugrovs2012/pwm-2a-ac-light-dimmer-module-50hz-60hz-120v-240v/

I'm not certain with this blower but many can be powered by AC or DC power so that may be why you are seeing done folks using DC controllers. If you were to go the dc control route, you would have to feed the blower DC power as well.


Thanks I have 2 of these, blew one triac already!
madhatter349

Quote

renatoa wrote:

The above board is using the same control principle as those discussed above, i.e. sine chopping, aka dimmer.
I don't expect to see any change in the Ametek motor behaviour vs previous attempts.

I can suggest you another approach that worked for me, but... again, was a brushed motor ! A/C 220V, but brushed !
Setup: TC4 compiled using CONFIG_PAC2 power control mode, and RobotDyn board.
You will connect the motor on heater output, so will be controlled with an on-off sequence of full half sines, using ICC method, instead chopped sine, as is doing a normal dimmer. Or OT2 output and PAC...
Curious to hear how your motor behave powered this way.


I am waiting on my random fire SSR's, but I plan on using the boards ZC detection to control a random fire SSR to modulate the power of this motor......

What is the ideal motor for fluid bed? Is DC easier to control then AC or both require ZC no matter what?
renatoa
DC does not require ZCD, the control is done using PWM.

This thread calls for another, to properly explain all the power control methods used for heaters and motors, and all these acronyms... what do you think ?
allenb

Quote

if my above assumptions are correct, your motor is brushless, whose speed control are more complicate and sophisticated... there are many methods to do this, but none is easy, you can read more here:
https://www.electricaleasy.com/2014/0...motor.html


This motor is a brush type motor, not brushless.
Edited by JackH on 10/23/2020 2:54 PM
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
renatoa
Ok, then... is anyone succeeded varying its speed ? How ?
madhatter349

Quote

allenb wrote:

Quote

if my above assumptions are correct, your motor is brushless, whose speed control are more complicate and sophisticated... there are many methods to do this, but none is easy, you can read more here:
https://www.electricaleasy.com/2014/0...motor.html


This motor is a brush type motor, not brushless.


Exactly!! So being that is it brushed, what is the simplest solution to vary its speed?
madhatter349

Quote

renatoa wrote:

The above board is using the same control principle as those discussed above, i.e. sine chopping, aka dimmer.
I don't expect to see any change in the Ametek motor behaviour vs previous attempts.

I can suggest you another approach that worked for me, but... again, was a brushed motor ! A/C 220V, but brushed !
Setup: TC4 compiled using CONFIG_PAC2 power control mode, and RobotDyn board.
You will connect the motor on heater output, so will be controlled with an on-off sequence of full half sines, using ICC method, instead chopped sine, as is doing a normal dimmer. Or OT2 output and PAC...
Curious to hear how your motor behave powered this way.


Did you plug the motor into the dimmer output of the robotdyn board or use an SSR?
renatoa
The blower motor was been connected to the dimmer terminals engraved LOAD (blue).
Robotdyn board is a combo consisting of a ZCD AND a SSR, on same board, no need for another SSR.
madhatter349

Quote

renatoa wrote:

The blower motor was been connected to the dimmer terminals engraved LOAD (blue).
Robotdyn board is a combo consisting of a ZCD AND a SSR, on same board, no need for another SSR.


I had an issue using the output load on the board, blew the triac!
madhatter349
Happy to report, I have Ametek motor now working with arduino and Artisan. Countless, Countless hours put in, but finally working.

AC Dimmer Module + Random Fire SSR = Perfect Speed Control.
renatoa
How you connected the Random fire SSR to dimmer ? which dimmer ?

Please, can you post a sketch, I am puzzled, a dimmer output stage is same thing as a random fire SSR, so cascading them ...

If you mean RobotDyn dimmer, maybe the answer is the lack of the snubber circuit, which is missing, but probably found in the SSR. Would have been easier to add a snubber to the RobotDyn dimmer than another SSR, imo.
Are you sure the triac was been blown? a missing snubber could led to similar behaviour without actually blowing the triac. Did you tried the suposedly blown triac with a bulb as load ?
madhatter349

Quote

renatoa wrote:

How you connected the Random fire SSR to dimmer ? which dimmer ?

Please, can you post a sketch, I am puzzled, a dimmer output stage is same thing as a random fire SSR, so cascading them ...

If you mean RobotDyn dimmer, maybe the answer is the lack of the snubber circuit, which is missing, but probably found in the SSR. Would have been easier to add a snubber to the RobotDyn dimmer than another SSR, imo.
Are you sure the triac was been blown? a missing snubber could led to similar behaviour without actually blowing the triac. Did you tried the suposedly blown triac with a bulb as load ?


I just need to get permission to post the code that someone helped me with, but will upload all the information I can.

AC into Light Dimmer Module - VCC to pin 2 of arduino, and VCC & GND to Arduino VCC & GND
SSR Heater - GND to -4, Pin 13 to -3, Neutral to 1, Live to Heater
SSR Ametek Motor- GND to -4, Pin 12 to -3, Neutral to 1, Live to Ametek Motor

From my understanding, the arduino will now sync Zero Cross from the AC dimmer module.
Random fire SSR's now work perfectly with ZC sync and Motor and Heater.
madhatter349 attached the following image:
config.jpg
renatoa
This way make sense... should work with standard TC4 code, no change needed.

So you are using the ZCD half of the dimmer board, just for the ZC and nothing else... but the SSR command comes from TC4, not from dimmer, as I misunderstood from the post #15.

This still not explain why didn't worked with the Amazon box... maybe also missing snubber, as the dimmer board...
madhatter349

Quote

renatoa wrote:

This way make sense... should work with standard TC4 code, no change needed.

So you are using the ZCD half of the dimmer board, just for the ZC and nothing else... but the SSR command comes from TC4, not from dimmer, as I misunderstood from the post #15.

This still not explain why didn't worked with the Amazon box... maybe also missing snubber, as the dimmer board...


I am not using TC4, just an arduino nano.

What do you mean amazon box?
renatoa
Amazon box, i.e. "cheap speed controller", the link from your first post.

Used TC4 as a generic term, because is the most popular solution. TC4 is just an Arduino shield, a peripheral, like the webcam for a computer.
The brain who generate triac control pulses is in the firmware (sketch) that runs on Arduino board.
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