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renatoa
02/08/2023 1:20 AM
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Modifying DASH 1400W Popper with TC4 + Transistor DC Relay
love4guatemala
Hey there! Longtime lurker first-time poster here :)

I am modding my first popcorn popper and I have no idea what I'm doing!! So far it's been fun and I've learned a lot. I'm looking to use a TC4 to control my popper via the CONFIG_PWM mode.

Where I am stuck is with this dang PCB and the safe but frustrating connections used to plug into it. I don't mind soldering something but to me it just seems like it would be easier to pull the PCB board and run straight to the motor terminals. But also, as stated, I have no idea what I'm doing!

Any advice? I can post pics if needed.
Edited by love4guatemala on 02/19/2021 9:57 AM
 
renatoa
The PCB contains also the LC anti-sparks filter, which is wise to keep.

The most obvious points where to connect are the outputs of the diodes bridge.
In this picture:

https://content.i...6NR2OX.jpg

... the pads you want are the outmost left and right, where the rectifier connects to the black rectangles (inductances).

The picture is part of this instructable article:
https://www.instr...e-Roaster/
 
love4guatemala
Thank you! Just to be extra certain, here are the images of the PCB:

https://imgur.com...

https://imgur.com...
 
renatoa
Oups... no filter... no good... Sparks can induce noise in thermocouples...
Board removal or not would be my last worry, adding at least a pair of caps is more important.
Please, check this article for how to:
https://gertech.s...otors.html
 
love4guatemala
Should I scrap this one and buy a different popper?
 
BenKeith
I haven't messed with one of those since 2000 but I'm pretty sure you can't do exactly what you are thinking you want to do.
While, yes actually you can remove the PC board but that creates another problem, coming up with a power supply
I'm pretty sure that PC board actually rectifies the AC power and drops it down to about 28 VDC. It may be more, something like 50 VDC, you can measure it at the motor terminals, but it will for sure go up in smoke if you tried to connect an AC line voltage to it.
I'm pretty sure it was the original Poppery models that had AC motors, that's why most people used them but are harder to find. The Poppery II and most others had that DC motor with the rectifier board.

Where are you located?
 
renatoa

Quote

love4guatemala wrote:

Should I scrap this one and buy a different popper?


Nooo... why, are you scared just about this caps issue ?
 
love4guatemala
Haha I'm not scared just not very good at this. So I'm relying on the help of kind strangers such as yourself.

So I should buy some caps and solder them onto the PCB at the points where you showed me?
 
renatoa
Beware, setting up a TC4 is much more challenging than soldering 3 caps on the motor, so document you carefully before proceeding further.
Don't look for success stories, but rather the horror Grin
 
love4guatemala
I like a challenge! That's why I'm doing this. I'm much more patient than I am knowledgeable at this point. :)

In the diagram you linked to the caps go directly onto the terminals. In this case, do they go onto the PCB?
 
renatoa
Yes, my personal preference would be to leave the PCB where it is especially for the support of the wire terminals, much solid than the motor terminals, which are rather fragile.
 
love4guatemala
Fantastic! Thank you for your help. Parts ordered.

This is what I'm working with. If you've got any other tips/advice on how to wire this sucker I'd love to hear them.
love4guatemala attached the following images:
img-5909.jpg img-5906.jpg
 
renatoa
The black wires are the motor, cut them as close to the heater plate and connect to the appropriate circuits, i.e. DC power source + PWM controller, or whatever fan control method you have.

The silver cylinder is a 240-270 C degrees thermal fuse, you can read the value engraved on the cylinder. It is provided as fire protection, once burnt needs replacement or bypass.
Some people bypass it but is not wise, I would let it untouched, because in normal regime the temperature should never go so high on that side of heater assembly. If this happens means lack of airflow: motor burnt, turbine melt, bad things, that could led to fire.

Blue/red wires are for heater/SSR circuit... but wait, these details were already discussed here:
https://homeroast...post_72402
Edited by renatoa on 02/15/2021 11:06 AM
 
love4guatemala

Quote

BenKeith wrote:

I haven't messed with one of those since 2000 but I'm pretty sure you can't do exactly what you are thinking you want to do.
While, yes actually you can remove the PC board but that creates another problem, coming up with a power supply
I'm pretty sure that PC board actually rectifies the AC power and drops it down to about 28 VDC. It may be more, something like 50 VDC, you can measure it at the motor terminals, but it will for sure go up in smoke if you tried to connect an AC line voltage to it.
I'm pretty sure it was the original Poppery models that had AC motors, that's why most people used them but are harder to find. The Poppery II and most others had that DC motor with the rectifier board.

Where are you located?


Hey! Sorry to have missed this.

I live in the Triangle area of North Carolina.
 
love4guatemala

Quote

renatoa wrote:

The black wires are the motor, cut them as close to the heater plate and connect to the appropriate circuits, i.e. DC power source + PWM controller, or whatever fan control method you have.

The silver cylinder is a 240-270 C degrees thermal fuse, you can read the value engraved on the cylinder. It is provided as fire protection, once burnt needs replacement or bypass.
Some people bypass it but is not wise, I would let it untouched, because in normal regime the temperature should never go so high on that side of heater assembly. If this happens means lack of airflow: motor burnt, turbine melt, bad things, that could led to fire.

Blue/red wires are for heater/SSR circuit... but wait, these details were already discussed here:
https://homeroast...post_72402


Thank you so much! I am guessing red is live and blue is neutral?

I read on another thread that you use 18 awg wire for your projects. How do you connect that to the TC4?
 
renatoa
AWG18 for high currents circuits only, which are outside TC4.
For low currents circuits, as OT1/OT2/IO3 you can use tiny wires, in the 22-26 AWG range, as those from used by Dupont wiring for breadboards.

There is no live/neutral in the popper, depends how you insert plug in the wall.
 
BenKeith
I guess I'm missing something somewhere in how you plan to make the TC4 control that popper. If I remember right, as I mentioned before, that motor is a DC motor and the heating element is used as a resistor to drop the voltage and the diodes rectify it to make it DC.
Maybe Brad or someone has come up with a method for if to control DC. The ones I have use a ZCD to control an AC fan. I don't see where using a DC power supply would be practical. I know I have about 20 TC4 circuit boards and 10 TC4C boards I drew up and had made when Jim got out of it and they don't won't do it.
Anyway, ya'll seem to have things under control so not getting into that.

Now, the reason I ask where you live, I came across a box with some of that old stuff I messed with when I first started back over 20 years ago, that has ac motors. That would make life much simpler for what you are trying to do. One was a Poppery I had taken the motor and heater out and made the old Hearthware Gourmet heater and fan unit fit because it was much more powerful than the Poppery unit. There was also another popper, not sure but it probably had the similar setup as what you have now. It's not pretty and pretty much jerry rigged crap but it worked.
Since you only live a few states away and if the shipping is not too much, I was going to offer that to you, if you felt you wanted it.
The biggest thing is, I was pulling out and throwing old crap away to get rid of the clutter when I came across it, and I may have went ahead and pitched it. I would have to look. and get back with you if you are interested.
 
renatoa
To control DC motors TC4 provide a PWM output, the IO3, where you can either connect your own MOSFET board, either an external PWM controller board, if you like to build using "bricks.
Below is a link to a large choice of such DC PWM control units, with the advent of 3D printing and robotics, today they became something common:
https://www.robot...llers.html
 
BenKeith
I was just thinking of all work and expense one had to go through to take a $5 air popper and turn it into a unit with variable heat and fan to roast a few ounces of beans. It's been a few years since I've even looked at one, but I'm not even sure the ones I did, which were basically exact copies of the last ones Jim did, even have an IO3. I have four of five assembled ones stuck somewhere around here. I'll have to look if I come across them.
However, I guess when it comes down to it, you still need two SSR's, heat sinks and a ZCD to control the heat and AC fan so I guess throwing a DC power supply in is not that much more.
Old saying goes, All roads lead to Rome, it's just a matter of which one you take for how easy it is to get there.
 
renatoa
Yep... quoting a great classic...

"Home coffee roasting is as fun and easy, or as exacting and technical, as you want to make it."
 
BenKeith
Did a little research and found out we were comparing apples against oranges.
I see there is a TC4+ board someone has added to the mix that does have a mosfet controller on a IO3
 
renatoa
Yes, is the same apple, embedded or external.
Is just a MOSFET, with associated circuitry, as we found on the cheapest PWM regulator boards.
Such circuit is still needed on the classic TC4 solution.
Both solutions are using the same IO3 pin for control, and same code.
 
love4guatemala
Y'all are amazing. Thank you for all the help so far.

So I was trying to do this according to greencardigan's setup guide (attached the photo of connection example)

Would something like this work? (I'm based in the USA) https://smile.ama...00WSN98DC/
love4guatemala attached the following image:
pwm_setup-page-001.jpg
 
love4guatemala

Quote

BenKeith wrote:

I guess I'm missing something somewhere in how you plan to make the TC4 control that popper. If I remember right, as I mentioned before, that motor is a DC motor and the heating element is used as a resistor to drop the voltage and the diodes rectify it to make it DC.
Maybe Brad or someone has come up with a method for if to control DC. The ones I have use a ZCD to control an AC fan. I don't see where using a DC power supply would be practical. I know I have about 20 TC4 circuit boards and 10 TC4C boards I drew up and had made when Jim got out of it and they don't won't do it.
Anyway, ya'll seem to have things under control so not getting into that.

Now, the reason I ask where you live, I came across a box with some of that old stuff I messed with when I first started back over 20 years ago, that has ac motors. That would make life much simpler for what you are trying to do. One was a Poppery I had taken the motor and heater out and made the old Hearthware Gourmet heater and fan unit fit because it was much more powerful than the Poppery unit. There was also another popper, not sure but it probably had the similar setup as what you have now. It's not pretty and pretty much jerry rigged crap but it worked.
Since you only live a few states away and if the shipping is not too much, I was going to offer that to you, if you felt you wanted it.
The biggest thing is, I was pulling out and throwing old crap away to get rid of the clutter when I came across it, and I may have went ahead and pitched it. I would have to look. and get back with you if you are interested.


Hey I'd love that! Happy to pay for shipping and see if there's something I can offer in return!
 
renatoa

Quote

love4guatemala wrote:

Y'all are amazing. Thank you for all the help so far.

So I was trying to do this according to greencardigan's setup guide (attached the photo of connection example)

Would something like this work? (I'm based in the USA) https://smile.ama...00WSN98DC/


Possible to work, but is unnecessary powerful and complicate board for what you need.
Anything more than the board mentioned in this thread is a waste of resources:
https://homeroast...post_72991

As BenKeith already told, you are already over-engineering the capabilities of a popper, which is usually just the introductory machine in this field.
The best approach would be to learn operate it manually, and exercise your sense for the various stages of roasting coffee, than rely on the computer to roast for you.
 
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