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renatoa
05/23/2022 10:46 AM
abiy welcome cup

renatoa
05/18/2022 6:13 AM
gnosis coffee roasters and Terry Hauser, welcome !

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05/15/2022 7:00 PM
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Steadily Declining ROR
JohnMu
Any tips on how to solve the following problem?

My ROR shoots up very fast in the beginning of the roast. It peaks one minute into a seven minute roast. (I am using a typhoon fluid bed roaster which typically takes seven minutes to roast a five kilo batch)

Then it starts to plummet downwards. Way too fast. If the ROR hits 50 (for example) at one minute into the roast, it's already at 10 after two and a half minutes.

Any ideas on how to slow this down?

How to make it a more steadily declining line as opposed to dropping off a cliff two minutes into the roast?
Edited by JohnMu on 03/14/2022 2:40 PM
 
renatoa
Welcome and congrats for the typhoon roaster, you are a pioneer here !

How is temperature measured?

Sounds like the probe measure too much air, this fast declining looks similar as a graph on my machine, for ET curve, and is not abnormal, means that air warmed fast then trending slowly to a plateau in the second half of the roast.

Much simpler than agonizing for that declining RoR mantra, is too keep heat input as constant as you can.
If this condition is met, then the beans RoR will decline naturally, because so are the thermodynamic rules, can't happen otherwise.
For more insight on this subject, please check "well tempered roaster" related threads.
Edited by renatoa on 03/14/2022 4:21 PM
 
renatoa
Probably you already read everything about your machine, but I post this just in case...

 
JohnMu
Thanks for your response Renatoa.

The probe sits in the bottom right hand of the chamber. It's 3mm thick and sticks out quite a bit into the chamber. You can see it making steady contact with the beans throughout the roast and it is a little bit away from where the hot air is being pushed through into the chamber.

I could not find the thread you mentioned, "well tempered roaster"
I also really appreciated the video you posted it was very helpful.

I would appreciate any more info you might be able to share about fluid bed roasting. All of the books I am reading are on drum roasters that use gas so it's hard to translate that knowledge to fluid bed roasting!
 
renatoa
You are right, hot air roast is handled different than drum, gas or electric.
Most heat comes from the air, no conduction, no radiation, there is almost no thermal inertia, and any change in power level can be seen very fast, compared with a machine that operates as a heat exchange, and requires power changes carefully planing in advance.

The thread I hint at is here:
homeroasters.org/...ad_id=6642
...and is a followup of the original thread you will find referenced in the first post.

BTW, your machine is not a pure fluid bed design, but a variation called bubblebed , we have two threads that tries to cover this concept:
https://homeroast...ad_id=6427
https://homeroast...ad_id=3281
 
allenb

Quote

JohnMu wrote:

Any tips on how to solve the following problem?

My ROR shoots up very fast in the beginning of the roast. It peaks one minute into a seven minute roast. (I am using a typhoon fluid bed roaster which typically takes seven minutes to roast a five kilo batch)

Then it starts to plummet downwards. Way too fast. If the ROR hits 50 (for example) at one minute into the roast, it's already at 10 after two and a half minutes.

Any ideas on how to slow this down?

How to make it a more steadily declining line as opposed to dropping off a cliff two minutes into the roast?


John,

Let us know which model of the Typhoon you have.

Also, let us know what the process is for changing power levels.
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
renatoa
I have a guess... he is trying to operate his machine "as seen on youtobe" following a drum roaster logic, where the gas is pushed up abruptly after TP.
This could explain the RoR jump to 50, and is a strategy that not work for hot air roasters, because thermal inertia is much lower than for a drum.
The power should be slowly gradual increased after soaking period, literally driving the temperature, as the accelerator pedal in a car.
 
JohnMu

Quote

allenb wrote:

Quote

JohnMu wrote:

Any tips on how to solve the following problem?

My ROR shoots up very fast in the beginning of the roast. It peaks one minute into a seven minute roast. (I am using a typhoon fluid bed roaster which typically takes seven minutes to roast a five kilo batch)

Then it starts to plummet downwards. Way too fast. If the ROR hits 50 (for example) at one minute into the roast, it's already at 10 after two and a half minutes.

Any ideas on how to slow this down?

How to make it a more steadily declining line as opposed to dropping off a cliff two minutes into the roast?


John,

Let us know which model of the Typhoon you have.

Also, let us know what the process is for changing power levels.


It is their five kilo model.

Basically you have a control panel which allows you to modulate how much hot air gets pumped into the chamber. (At least I think that's what is happening!)

0 and the coffee doesn't move, 100 and the coffee is dancing like crazy in there with the bean temp soaring at crazy speeds.

Does that answer your question?
 
JohnMu

Quote

renatoa wrote:

Probably you already read everything about your machine, but I post this just in case...



It's kind of confusing.

Here and other places I am hearing to change roast strategy when working with a convection roaster.

However, in this video he seems to apply a pretty standard gas drum roast strategy. High energy in the beginning which tapers off over time.

Perhaps I should just try both and see what works.

The main problems I am having are as follows:

Lacking aroma
Lacking sweetness
Burnt/charcoal taste
Harshness

I am roasting for espresso at the moment.
 
renatoa
Noticed the same too... very confusing...

I would try the "well tempered" approach with the lowest load allowed for that roaster, and experiment from there.
I mean charge at 175-200C, and ramp to 240-250C for 4 minutes, than keep there same power to the end.
Maybe slightly change the power to suit the desired RoR declining slope for the first crack approach.
 
allenb

Quote

JohnMu wrote:

Quote

allenb wrote:

Quote

JohnMu wrote:

Any tips on how to solve the following problem?

My ROR shoots up very fast in the beginning of the roast. It peaks one minute into a seven minute roast. (I am using a typhoon fluid bed roaster which typically takes seven minutes to roast a five kilo batch)

Then it starts to plummet downwards. Way too fast. If the ROR hits 50 (for example) at one minute into the roast, it's already at 10 after two and a half minutes.

Any ideas on how to slow this down?

How to make it a more steadily declining line as opposed to dropping off a cliff two minutes into the roast?


John,

Let us know which model of the Typhoon you have.

Also, let us know what the process is for changing power levels.


It is their five kilo model.

Basically you have a control panel which allows you to modulate how much hot air gets pumped into the chamber. (At least I think that's what is happening!)

0 and the coffee doesn't move, 100 and the coffee is dancing like crazy in there with the bean temp soaring at crazy speeds.

Does that answer your question?


John,

Have you called the company to inquire about how to control the temperature entering the roast chamber? Without this ability, you have no control over your roaster other than varying the agitation via air flow which will not get you what you need. Also, what does the manual say in regards to controlling temperature?
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
JohnMu
I can control the temp of the air. I can change at any point.
Also I can control the fan speed. I can change it any point.

Thanks for helping me clarify that!
 
JohnMu
Lacking aroma
Lacking sweetness
Lacking complexity

Burnt/charcoal taste
Harshness

In terms of post roast analysis, what do the above suggest to you guys?
 
renatoa
It's just me, or you suggest a connection between these symptoms, and the thread title ?
And want someone to confirm these assumptions for you ?

Did you read the threads I pointed you some posts above ?
Tried a roast according to those stated there ?
 
CK
I suggest posting an image of your profiles, with the environment temperature curve and the bean temperature curve. That way we can understand how you're running your machine with visual references... Also, what beans are you using? Can you produce good results on another machine with the same beans?
Technivorm Moccamaster, Breville SGP, Transparent Roaster, Roaster908
 
renatoa
Profile is heavily dependent on machine type, and the way how the heat is transferred to beans.
Without knowing much about the machine build you can't tell much about a roast, just looking at the profile.
There are known commercial machines exhibiting a deceiving flat profile in the second half, but delivering good results in cup.
I seen a lot of so called post roast analysis done today altered by concepts characteristics to commercial drum roasters wrong applied to hot air machines. And viceversa could be the same, but not so often encountered.

I am pretty skeptical that a profile exchange between our machines would led to some wow flavors Grin
 
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