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 Hi from rainy Bolton-Fluidbed Build
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| Rincewind |
Posted on 08/24/2022 11:09 PM
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 Newbie  Posts: 10 Joined: August 23, 2022 |
Hi all, i just wanted to say hi and introduce myself to the community..Hi  Some of you may recognise my user name as i'm the Admin over at CFUK (CoffeeForumsUK) for my sins. Anyhow it's taken me month's to get through the door here, i don't know if it was due to gremlins on your side or mine; no matter i've finally got in. I've been reading the various boards for about 6 months now and have amassed a wealth of information...for this i give my thanks to all. I have a spare 1.5 HP 3 Phase motor (6 pole) and a fancy controller to control it (it also has digital control) that i purchased new for another project but my brother (metal turner) is still stuck in Covid phobia and i could be waiting for years for him to recover, so i've temporarily shelved that project for the time being...but i'm itching to make use of this beast of a motor. My profession is Electronics so the control side of things will be a walk in the park for whatever roaster i decide to build. Until my brother recovers i'm going to utilise the few skills (not many) i have with regards to anything constructed with metal; this will narrow down my choices i presume. The motor could turn a substantial sized drum but the compexities (for me) in building a drum (plus internal wiper/vanes) maybe a step too far...so...that leaves me with the FB style of roaster, they look somewhat easier to construct but the noise (from numerous video's i've seen) sounds horrendous...how does one hear first crack above all that racket. So after careful study and some considerable thinking i've decided to try and make something similar to an Artisan 3-e ...i don't really see me having much difficulty in knocking up something similar. Which brings me to my eagerness to join up...i want to make my own impeller, a rotary fan blade impeller to be precise...yes i can buy one from Fleabay for peanuts but none have the hole diameter to fit the spindle of my monster motor and are possibly not wide enough...hence i want to fabricate my very own. Vortex fan units have them attached to 3 phase motors but cost a fortune, plus i already have the motor...i found a "vortex style" fan unit (seperate from the motor) but again this was far from cheap. I've seen multiple YT video's on how to construct one's own impeller but none show you the Math involved i.e. what size of diamter, number of blades, size of blades etc. etc. to shift x amount of air. So to start of my project i'm firstly here for the Math....if any kind soul can point me in the direction of any thread/post on here that contains the Math i'd be very much appreciative. Thanks for letting me join your community. Darren. Edited by allenb on 08/31/2022 10:39 AM Tree Hugging Biker Trees have feelings too, so show them some love...it'll make you feel better and it'll brighten up the trees day no doubt |
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| allenb |
Posted on 08/27/2022 6:14 PM
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 Administrator  Posts: 3727 Joined: February 23, 2010 |
Hi Rincewind and big welcome to HRO! Sorry for the late reply to your introduction post. We usually try to welcome newcomers asap. My apologies for the trouble you went through getting on board with us. Also, sorry to hear about your brother's health issues and hopefully he's on the healing side of the curve. In regards to your desire to craft your own blower impeller wheel, that is very adventurous indeed as there is a lot of mind numbing design rabbit holes needed to traverse in order to come up with the correct vane geometry and wheel diameter which also depends on the motor's top rpm available. This site gives just a little of the basic criteria which to me, is enough to make me want to run in the opposite direction https://www.calql...-help.html but you may sail right on through it with no issues. The data covered on the site is probably not enough to get you what you need but let me keep digging and see if I can find something that takes you through an actual design from square 1. But, it looks like for around $35.00, you can download their fan design calculator and may be able to give you the design detail you need. The Artisan 3-e looks like a great roaster to emulate. Edited by allenb on 08/27/2022 6:32 PM 1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
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| ChicagoJohn |
Posted on 08/28/2022 5:18 PM
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 Pounder  Posts: 513 Joined: June 15, 2015 |
Hello and welcome! The custom impeller project should be quite interesting!
So many beans; so little time.... |
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| allenb |
Posted on 08/28/2022 6:34 PM
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Administrator Posts: 3727 Joined: February 23, 2010 |
This paper takes one through the steps for a particular blower wheel although for a 10 hp blower. It is for high pressure which is obviously needed for moving coffee in a fluidbed. https://irejourna...701515.pdf 1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
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| Rincewind |
Posted on 08/28/2022 11:34 PM
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Newbie Posts: 10 Joined: August 23, 2022 |
Hi all. Thanks for the warm welcome and kind words, it's much appreciated. Allen that link (calculator) was extremely informative as is that Paper..that Fig 3 graph on the paper was exactly what i was looking for. Noise is my main priority, as i want to be able to hear "first-crack" easily, rather that struggling to hear it over the racket. Size/diameter isn't an important factor and after i've studied all the info i will start to make notes/calculations....but...noise will be my main goal. My motor is double ended (it is now) so i could make 2 fans; one for air-flow and one to act as a vacuum for fumes/chaff etc. As stated in my OP my metalwork skills are mediocre so i doubt i'll be building a Vortex style/type fan anyway (besides the noise is horrendous), i'll more than likely be making the sandwich style fan as i can get (once i've drawn up my design) those laser cut...this is the type :- example fan the blade "bending" will probably require a jig/former to help with the initial bend but the slots in the 2 sandwich plates will do the lions share of bending/holding it's shape. The laser cutting+materials will still be cheaper than a pre-maid Vortex fan (cheapest i've found was $300+$125 shipping which is just waaaay too much. So now it's time to study that Paper and start calculating. Thank you once again for sourcing that info  Darren. Tree Hugging Biker Trees have feelings too, so show them some love...it'll make you feel better and it'll brighten up the trees day no doubt |
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| allenb |
Posted on 08/29/2022 10:10 AM
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Administrator Posts: 3727 Joined: February 23, 2010 |
You're welcome! Glad to hear they might be useful sites. FYI, straight radial blades, even though not quite as efficient as backward inclined-curved, will work fine for your purposes but the curved will most likely be a more solid construction when using the blades as an attachment vehicle for your sandwich plates (as with vacuum cleaner blower impellers). It's good that going with a larger diameter isn't an issue as this really allows lowering the db level with not having to hit extreme speeds. Also allows a lower degree of precision with balancing the wheel. One thing I'm sure you are already aware of is to ensure you design with the smallest gap possible between blower wheel faces and volute housing plates to prevent losses from high side to low side. 1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
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| Rincewind |
Posted on 08/29/2022 11:11 PM
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Newbie Posts: 10 Joined: August 23, 2022 |
Yeah it will be similar to a Vacuum Cleaner blower impeller with flat (but bent/curved) blades...the motor's RPM is 960 but my controller can overdive up to 150% (should i require it...cooling mode etc.). I wasn't fully up to speed (pardon the pun) with the gap info but i was aware of it; i'll familiarize myself with the in/outs before putting pen to paper. I may (not yet decided, ��$$ will decide) to make a few different diameter ones say 8", 10" and 12" to compare the noise as that is my first priority. Time to start studying...cheers Allen. Tree Hugging Biker Trees have feelings too, so show them some love...it'll make you feel better and it'll brighten up the trees day no doubt |
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| allenb |
Posted on 08/30/2022 6:41 AM
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Administrator Posts: 3727 Joined: February 23, 2010 |
If the blower is to be used in a fluidbed design, the range of static pressures is typically anywhere from 8 to 20 inches water column depending on roast chamber configuration. From my experience, you will need at minimum, around 2500 rpm with a 12� diameter wheel to hit the needed tip velocity. My guess is you would need a very large diameter to achieve it at 1300 rpm.
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
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| Rincewind |
Posted on 08/30/2022 8:53 PM
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Newbie Posts: 10 Joined: August 23, 2022 |
Cheers Allen, that's just saved me some study time; downside is i now need a faster motor lol...no worries as i'll just store the one i have until my brother gets better and i can carry on with my other project. So with that in mind i've seen some 3 phase Motor & Vortex fan combo's going for not daft money on Ebay...do you recommend any particular size/CFM/HP/Wattage/RPM for use with a FB say a 3llb roast chamber (i may go a tad smaller). I'm also toying with the idea of "remote" (within reason) placement of the motor to reduce/eliminate as much noise as possible. Please accept my apologies for hogging this section; i'll do a fresh post in the appropriate section. Tree Hugging Biker Trees have feelings too, so show them some love...it'll make you feel better and it'll brighten up the trees day no doubt |
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| addertooth |
Posted on 08/30/2022 9:27 PM
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 Newbie Posts: 19 Joined: August 01, 2022 |
Rincewind, Good luck on your project. I would first consider a "squirrel cage" blower to move the air. It is simple, and pre-fabricated versions are very inexpensive. They are also efficient, and require less horsepower to move a rather large volume of air. As someone else mentioned, a shop vac moves a lot of air, and is already routed to tubing for connection to a system. They both pull air in, and push air out. |
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| allenb |
Posted on 08/31/2022 7:39 AM
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Administrator Posts: 3727 Joined: February 23, 2010 |
A fluidbed requires static pressures that a squirrel cage wheel cannot develop. We�ll get this thread moved over to an appropriate forum. 1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
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| allenb |
Posted on 08/31/2022 11:56 AM
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Administrator Posts: 3727 Joined: February 23, 2010 |
Quote Rincewind wrote: Cheers Allen, that's just saved me some study time; downside is i now need a faster motor lol...no worries as i'll just store the one i have until my brother gets better and i can carry on with my other project. So with that in mind i've seen some 3 phase Motor & Vortex fan combo's going for not daft money on Ebay...do you recommend any particular size/CFM/HP/Wattage/RPM for use with a FB say a 3llb roast chamber (i may go a tad smaller). Due to lots of variables, it's hard to nail down cfm, wattage etc. But, from past experience and seeing a few builds, you'll most likely need in the neighborhood of between 40 and 45 cfm of ambient air for a 3 lb fluidbed. Motor HP and wattage are motor efficiency dependent. A guess would be in the 600 + watt range. The load on the motor is primarily due to the static pressure requirement. 1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
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| Rincewind |
Posted on 08/31/2022 10:47 PM
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Newbie Posts: 10 Joined: August 23, 2022 |
Thanks for the thread move Allen, it's saved me copy n pasting my initial thoughts to a new section. I was looking at a 3 phase 750 W Vortex earlier, the price wasn't too bad either...i will be able to control this with my controller unit much easier than faffing around with say a single-phase Ametek Lamb type motor or similar. Having seen the heater element on the Artisan 3e i was looking for something similar on ebay...i saw some tumble-dryer heater elements and most looked quite pokey and would have to be dismantled and laid out in a less compact configuration...then i came across this open style heater (not much info) that looks like i could Dremmel in half those spacers, "unfold" the elements and parallel up a few of them as they're cheap enough but i couldn't see the Watage figure....i'm assuming something like this open-frame style would be more efficient than say some of those ceramic core welding/heat-gun type elements bunched up together....i'd rather buy something "off the shelf" as i could keep a spare in case of failures; the other option would be playing around with Nichrome wire (long time since i last did) which again is too much faff. I've found ceramic-fibre heatproof blanket material to be very low priced; i was expecting it to cost a small fortune tbh. I'm getting itchy fingers and i'm resisting the urger to start ordering stuff lol...other priorities loom (wedding). @addertooth i've refurbished/repaired about a dozen squirrel cage blowers over the years for my old vintage cars...too big/bulky compared to modern versions. Tree Hugging Biker Trees have feelings too, so show them some love...it'll make you feel better and it'll brighten up the trees day no doubt |
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| allenb |
Posted on 09/02/2022 5:07 PM
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Administrator Posts: 3727 Joined: February 23, 2010 |
That element is close to 5 kw and would be a great heater as-is but would obviously need a sheet metal enclosure to house it. 5 kw may be enough for a 3lb fluidbed if it is designed properly to allow a good low altitude, tight spout with minimal additional air. As you mentioned, the ceramic heat gun elements are not a fit at all.
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
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| Rincewind |
Posted on 09/02/2022 7:10 PM
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Newbie Posts: 10 Joined: August 23, 2022 |
EDIT :- See next post. I have a good friend who can weld stainless, aluminium and other metals so the cabinet/enclosure should be one of my tick-boxes ticked. Low altitude ??? as in bean loft ? Edited by Rincewind on 09/02/2022 8:17 PM Tree Hugging Biker Trees have feelings too, so show them some love...it'll make you feel better and it'll brighten up the trees day no doubt |
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| Rincewind |
Posted on 09/02/2022 8:29 PM
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Newbie Posts: 10 Joined: August 23, 2022 |
I mentioned in post #15 above that my earlier example was 110v duh...anyhow after some more searching i managed to find this :- 5.35kW 240v version The good thing about this one is that those mounting posts just "twist out" thereby giving me scope to fabricate a frame of sorts similar to the Artisan's heater element/frame/assy. Tree Hugging Biker Trees have feelings too, so show them some love...it'll make you feel better and it'll brighten up the trees day no doubt |
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| allenb |
Posted on 09/03/2022 11:02 AM
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Administrator Posts: 3727 Joined: February 23, 2010 |
Quote Yes, A mistake many FB builders make is allowing the spout to launch to excessive heights even to the point of hammering the top of the RC chamber. This is counter productive in regards to proper heat transfer and obviously requires more power to heat the excess air. 1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
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| Rincewind |
Posted on 09/05/2022 6:51 PM
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Newbie Posts: 10 Joined: August 23, 2022 |
Ahhh now some of the video's ive seen make sense i.e. Artisan video's and similar where the beans are only a couple of inches bubbling over; then as they get lighter in weight the roaster then reduces the air (loft height)...brilliant. Just found a 5k6W 240v heating element Restring Kit for $27.54 (total inc duties) shipped to UK, bargain in my eyes as it saves hacking up metalwork that would come with dryer heater-insert-assy...just need something like ceramic pillars to act as mounts to hold the wire. More browsing required. Tree Hugging Biker Trees have feelings too, so show them some love...it'll make you feel better and it'll brighten up the trees day no doubt |
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