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Advice on Ground Coffee as a Gift
seedlings
Top  #1 Print Post
Posted on 12/06/2008 8:46 AM
For those stick-in-the-mud Flogers/Maxhellwouse-out-of-the-can types... you know, co-workers and such...

When you MUST give ground coffee (because if you gifted a grinder too, they wouldn't use either), are there any good tips? These are the guys who will likely finish the Flogers can before they open this bag.

I have valved bags. Rest 2 days, grind, gift? Roast, grind, rest-in-the-bag?

Merry Christmas!
CHAD
Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500
Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover
 
BoldJava
Top  #2 Print Post
Posted on 12/06/2008 8:54 AM

Quote

seedlings wrote:

When you MUST give ground coffee (because if you gifted a grinder too, they wouldn't use either), are there any good tips? These are the guys who will likely finish the Flogers can before they open this bag.



When I gift folks, I gift them with a Zach and Dani grinder (picked up 24 of them, shipped for $75). When they insist on paying me, I say fine, give a check to your favorite charity or bump your church donation. From then on, they get whole beans.

RE: Others? I just grind away, but only after 3 days rest. Don't have the science to back me. Our car mechanics, good guys, had mine sitting on the shelf until as you say, they finished their 5# can of Folgers. Grrrrrr. Gotta' laugh.

In those cases, it just doesn't matter <wide arse grin>.

B|Java
http://sidewalkmy...
Dave Borton
Milwaukee, WI
 
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seedlings
Top  #3 Print Post
Posted on 12/06/2008 11:03 AM
I was just now thinking... I may rest 4-5 days, then grind and vacuum-seal with the foodsaver.

I love mechanic stories.

CHAD
Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500
Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover
 
David
Top  #4 Print Post
Posted on 12/06/2008 12:12 PM
If I really must grind for a gift, I grind within a day after roasting, let it "rest" about 5-10 minutes and then seal it in valved bag. The ground coffee gives off CO2 a lot faster, so I don't wait very long before sealing it up.

I also put a "best if used by" date on it. If it's a hand-it-to-the-person gift, I tell them that it needs to "mature" X number of days" or "This will be really great as your _______[Saturday]____ morning coffee."

FWIW. c:1
 
dBndbit
Top  #5 Print Post
Posted on 12/06/2008 6:00 PM
For gifting I use valve bags for whole beans, bagged immediately after roasting. For grind I do wire-close paper bags stolen from the local supermarkets... no, wait, I buy them on line. I really do! I roast at least one day ahead, grind at the last possible moment. Though I realize like BJ said, it really doesn't matter. I guess I do it just for my own conscience sake.

Grind doesn't work well in valve bags since if you squeeze the bag you can get a significant little jet of powder. (Very funny in certain situations.) Both paper bags and valve bags can at least be folded down to remove free air (oxygen) if anyone is that diligent. I guess I should include a rubber band.

I never put coffee in any kind of vacuum or negative pressure since a vacuum is exactly the wrong thing when you're trying to keep volatiles in the beans/grind.
Jim
11 years old... forever!
ReeferDoor.com
>home-built roasters and fair trade
 
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seedlings
Top  #6 Print Post
Posted on 12/08/2008 10:15 AM
Vacuum on roasted coffee is bad? Help me understand.

CHAD
Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500
Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover
 
dBndbit
Top  #7 Print Post
Posted on 12/08/2008 1:01 PM
I can't claim to be any kind of expert on this. But a vacuum for coffee, green or roast, is just something that has never made sense to me. Coffee seems to be so dependent on highly perishable flavor and aroma chemistry. So it always seemed like anything would be better than a negative pressure which would suck that chemistry out of the beans faster than normal.

Here's my thinking... Vacuum is a way of removing oxygen and thereby minimize oxidation which is bad for just about anything except stainless steel. But vacuum can also draw out water and any other volatile chemistry in food. Coffee gets stale normally as these precious chemicals leave the beans. Why hurry the process along? In the case of vacuum-packed meats, there is a 60% or higher water content and essentially zero additional gas volume (equal pressure everywhere). So there's little migration from inside to out, especially if it's frozen. But green coffee is only 12% moisture or only 2% (?) after roasting. And it's somewhat porous, especially in decaf. And there is some extra gas volume between all the beans. So there would be a definite pressure differential pulling out of each bean.

Oxygen is likely the biggest enemy in all staling processes, but there are ways to reduce oxygen other than vacuum. So why not use them instead? Back-filling with nitrogen would be ideal, but impractical for home roasters. Using a collapsible bag allows anybody to fold out most of the excess air (oxygen) and the remaining gas is heavily dominated by CO2 slowly outgassing from the beans.

But none of this pseudo-science means anything if you think your coffee tastes better after vacuum storage. Coffee is always personal and I wouldn't have it any other way. If so, I'll just say vacuum storage is highly counter-intuitive (to me).
Edited by dBndbit on 12/08/2008 1:02 PM
Jim
11 years old... forever!
ReeferDoor.com
>home-built roasters and fair trade
 
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bvwelch
Top  #8 Print Post
Posted on 12/08/2008 2:08 PM
I don't know who is right/wrong on this (vacuum packed issue) either. But I do think it is interesting that coffee is another one of those topics where very smart people have strong, yet opposite views on issues. Makes life interesting!

Sweetmarias has some of their greens vacuum packed at the "farm" in Brazil, Boliva, Ethiopia...

Reminds me of when I (as a naive beginner) asked for samples/examples of correct/good grinds for drip, press, and espresso. One year later, and I am still waiting. :-) Presumably the real answer is that is taster's choice, not absolute.

-bill
Edited by bvwelch on 12/08/2008 2:10 PM
 
dBndbit
Top  #9 Print Post
Posted on 12/08/2008 7:36 PM
Roger that. One of my favorite bosses used to say:
"I feel very strongly both ways about that."
Jim
11 years old... forever!
ReeferDoor.com
>home-built roasters and fair trade
 
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opus
Top  #10 Print Post
Posted on 12/08/2008 9:27 PM
Chad, I guess the best advice I can give you is to send some to me. I will tell you if it is impressive enough to be a gift. If not, keep practicing til you get it right. I'll let you know. ;)
 
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seedlings
Top  #11 Print Post
Posted on 12/09/2008 12:26 PM

Quote

opus wrote:
Chad, I guess the best advice I can give you is to send some to me. I will tell you if it is impressive enough to be a gift. If not, keep practicing til you get it right. I'll let you know. ;)


I call. Send me your address!!!

;)

CHAD
Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500
Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover
 
bvwelch
Top  #12 Print Post
Posted on 12/14/2008 8:50 PM
I am a novice in this world of homeroasted coffee. But that doesn't mean I haven't had some first-hand experiences during the past year or so. :-)

When I roast, I cool the beans, then I look them over carefully (remove any rocks, etc), as I weigh them and divide them into 200 gram lots, and store them in some inexpensive zip-topped "vacuum" bags. I gently "vacuum" the excess air and/or CO2 each morning. After about 4 days, I don't see any more evidence of CO2.

But I've certainly had coffee that tasted better at 7 to 10 days, rather than at 4 or 5 days.

About freezing -- I'll try and dig up the references that lead me to freeze my roasted whole beans. I think it was Mike McCoffee but I am not sure.

-bill
Edited by bvwelch on 12/14/2008 8:55 PM
 
seedlings
Top  #13 Print Post
Posted on 12/14/2008 9:32 PM
My unfounded theory is that a vacuum seal on beans just roasted will degass, thus releasing the vacuum very quickly. It will now be in an oxygen-free sealed bag. Just be sure there's enough extra volume in the bag to handle a volume of CO2 gas. When I've made the foodsaver bag too closely conform to the volume of beans, the bag over-balloons. Beans taste fine to me.

I wouldn't vacuum beans that have already degassed.

Bill, sivetz recommends freezing the beans (at temperatures less than -10F).
http://sivetzcoff...gJan01.htm

CHAD
Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500
Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover
 
bvwelch
Top  #14 Print Post
Posted on 12/14/2008 10:50 PM
Chad,

You raised some good points that I should clarify --

I'm not saying that if you take bad coffee and freeze it, it will somehow taste better.

I'm not saying that if you take bad coffee and vacuum pack it, it will taste better.

What I am saying is-- if you have more coffee beans than you can drink before they "go stale", I have found that vacuum packing them and freezing them works well for me and my family.

I use the quart-sized zip-locks, so for 200 grams beans there is plenty of room for the CO2.

I don't usually open the bags-- I just "vacuum" out the gas each day.

By the 4th or 5th day, I usually just pick which one I want to use "fresh", and the rest, if I haven't given them away or sold them, go into the freezer at the 4th or 5th day mark, having never been opened since the day they were roasted.

Here is one reference I bookmarked about a year ago:

http://www.home-b...eezer.html

200 grams lasts our family about 3 days. I never re-freeze beans. Once they are out of the freezer, they are consumed in the next few days.

I roast once or twice a month, unless I am doing some testing or tinkering, in which case I may roast more often.

I've tried roasting small amounts, so that I never need to freeze beans, and found it to be too much trouble for me.

You haven't tried freezing, so you don't know for sure if you'd like it or not. That is OK, you're still entitled to an opinion. :-)


-bill
Edited by bvwelch on 12/14/2008 11:27 PM
 
John Despres
Top  #15 Print Post
Posted on 12/15/2008 12:04 PM
I feel this way - If they need it ground, I grind it. I'm not gonna drink it, they are. It'll still be the best coffee they drink... I do suggest they drink it right away, though, so it doesn't go stale. Most take me at my word and use it up right away. And those that don't have no idea what they are missing. The next year I give 'em Folgers in their cup.
Respect the bean.
John Despres
Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers.
 
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bvwelch
Top  #16 Print Post
Posted on 12/15/2008 11:43 PM
Thanks for getting us back on topic John. Sorry about that.

-bill
 
John Despres
Top  #17 Print Post
Posted on 12/16/2008 7:30 AM
Uh... Wasn't my intention to get you back on track... I just didn't have anything to say about packaging gift coffee.
Respect the bean.
John Despres
Fresh Roast 8, Gene Cafe, JYTT 1k, Quest M3, Mazzer Mini, Technivorm, various size presses and many more brewers.
 
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seedlings
Top  #18 Print Post
Posted on 12/16/2008 10:05 AM
Time for an experiment.

Since Pete (opus) went all-in on my call, a shipment is in the mail. This coffee was roasted on Dec. 6th, ground and vacuum sealed (yes, I'm a rule-breaker!) on the 15th, shipped on the 16th. It will be an interesting test.

Pete? I don't think there's a road between here and there that isn't ice or snow covered. Maybe it will get to you by the first of the year... 2010?

CHAD
Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500
Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover
 
coffee queen
Top  #19 Print Post
Posted on 12/16/2008 3:40 PM
john, I must agree. if they want ground coffee, let them have ground, brew it and drink it...

you are correct, "still the best cup they have ever haad."

cq

s:1s:2s:2
 
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