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E-61 Build
Lylabrown
Top  #1 Print Post
Posted on 04/06/2013 12:23 PM
I've decided to upgrade from my Silvia to a E-61 group machine. I lack the budget to purchase an off-the-shelf machine at $1500-$3000. So my goal is to build a pro-sumer grade machine for $500 or so. Essentially breaking even after selling the Silvia.

Here's the first aquisition:
img189.imageshack.us/img189/5255/grouplz.jpg

Its a manual E-61 group made by Expobar, purchased from Stephanos. The group and re-build kit were 80 bucks. An incredible deal considering the nearly new condition of the interior and exterior parts. All it needs is a de-scale and new seals.

With the first major component out of the way. The next one has me at an impasse. I'm torn between building a HX or double boiler machine. I'm leaning towards the double boiler type for absolute control over both brewing and steaming temperatures. The downside is the need for an extra boiler, element, solenoid and water level sensor. More expense / maintenance down the road.

Regardless of type, The boiler body will be made of 4" copper tube capped on the ends with either brass plate, or rounded copper (i.e. bowl shaped). The end-caps and brass fittings will be brazed to the tube.

If you had the ability to build either a HX or Double Boiler machine which would you do?

Russ
 
ginny
Top  #2 Print Post
Posted on 04/06/2013 12:38 PM
Russ:

that is a hard choice. I have had both and since I am the only one who drinks espresso or related drinks in my home and I roast I have honestly never
seen/felt/tasted a difference between the two...

out the door I am the wrong person to respond but from your talk of budget I would stick with the HX.

how much do you use this machine? I would keep it simple with an HX but it really sounds like you have made up your mind to go double. just do it.

ginny

have you looked all over for a used espresso machine that is an upgrade for your silva that you could put work into?


party
 
Dan
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Posted on 04/06/2013 12:43 PM
I would go double. Engineering and soldering a heat exchanger inside a boiler isn't so easy. Have you thought about scavenging some HX machines for parts?
1 pound electric sample roaster, 3 pound direct-flame roaster, both handmade; modified Mazzer Mini grinder, LaSpaziale Vivaldi II automatic espresso machine. When the electricity goes out I make vacpot coffee from beans ground on my Zassenhaus hand grinder, and heat the water with a teakettle on the gas range.
 
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Lylabrown
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Posted on 04/06/2013 1:01 PM
Hey Ginny, Dan,
I've looked around locally and on eBay, etc, for a junked machine at a reasonable price. None were found. The major advantage of buying a fixer upper would be all the little components (pressure switch, rotary pump, solenoids, etc) I could scavenge from it. Those are the items that can drive up the cost when purchased individually.

I'm looking forward fabricating the boiler. It'll be a fun challenge. And a little scary when firing it up for the first time (while hiding behind a blast shield). Shock

Russ
 
allenb
Top  #5 Print Post
Posted on 04/06/2013 1:11 PM
Hey Russ,

Be sure to call all your local roasters to see if they have a "junked" machine that had exploded due to freezing etc. Some operations would rather unload them rather than try and part them out for spare parts.

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
JimH
Top  #6 Print Post
Posted on 04/06/2013 7:28 PM
It shouldn't be too hard to find a junked machine compatible with your E61 group. Most of the Spanish makers made exact or nearly exact copies, gleefully violating Faema's patents. If it were me, I would be looking for a volumetric version that was braindead, VFAs in particular seem to be going pretty cheap right now. Replace the brain with a Gicar autofill box, bend a few pipes to get rid of the flowmeter, a couple more small additions and you're set to go. You won't have the same pride of ownership, but you'll save a few hundred dollars. A double boiler would certainly be more fun to own, but I really doubt you could build one for less than $1000, and I tend to think that you are underestimating the level of engineering necessary to make one work well.

It's a shame you didn't post this a couple months ago, somebody near me dumped a Fiorenzato Bricoletta for $200 on CL. With a little good luck and patience I'm sure something will come along that you could use.
 
Lylabrown
Top  #7 Print Post
Posted on 04/07/2013 3:48 PM
Thanks Guys,
I appreciate your grounded responses. I'll keep looking for a salvage machine for parts. There's no rush, as Miss Silvia is still putting out quality shots. I'll let you know how it turned out.

Russ
 
Lylabrown
Top  #8 Print Post
Posted on 05/25/2013 12:08 AM
The "itch" to build my own machine has become unbearable. I'm gonna go ahead and build a double boiler machine from scratch. After studying the various manufacture methods for DB machines using the E-61 grouphead, it seems relatively simple to build one using readily available components. The shell & boilers will be the custom-built parts.

I'll mimic the boiler volumes / heating element wattages from the Alex Duetto 3 & Vibiemme Double Domobar. They use a smaller boiler for the brew water, and a larger one for steam. I purchased 3&4 inch diameter type L copper pipes from "the bay" for the brew & steam boilers. I'm planning on coiling copper tube outside the steam boiler to pre-heat the water going to the brew boiler.

Manufacturers invest much R&D time optimizing the thermosiphon loop for heating the group. Which still requires a pre-shot flush to get it at an ideal temperature. I hope to avoid this by eliminating the thermosiphon altogether and heating with a cartridge heater inserted in a capped brass nipple threaded into the thermosiphon outlet in the back of the group. It's controlled via Pid. Early (dry) tests are very promising. It'll also add another control variable for fine tuning the brew temperature for different varietals.

I've thrown out the idea of a fixed budget - The entertainment & fun involved are hard to put a price on. Not to mention the pleasure of pulling shots on a machine assembled with my own hands.

More to come.
 
Dan
Top  #9 Print Post
Posted on 05/25/2013 6:37 AM
Lylabrown, I know single-boiler E-61 groupheads overheat when idle, but isn't that because the boiler is hot in order to make steam? Do double-boiler machines really overheat?

I don't think mfgrs spend much time or money on thermosiphon. As the grouphead temperature nears the boiler temperature the thermosiphon naturally slows. Conversely, when it is cold the thermosiphon works faster.

The cartridge heater is interesting. Unless you plan on doing lots of back-to-back shots, you can eliminate the preheat coils. The brewer heater and cartridge heater will heat the water fast enough for most home use.

Please, send in photos as you build!
1 pound electric sample roaster, 3 pound direct-flame roaster, both handmade; modified Mazzer Mini grinder, LaSpaziale Vivaldi II automatic espresso machine. When the electricity goes out I make vacpot coffee from beans ground on my Zassenhaus hand grinder, and heat the water with a teakettle on the gas range.
 
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Lylabrown
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Posted on 05/25/2013 11:54 AM
Hey Dan, From what I gather - Double boiler machines using the E-61 tend to run cold at the grouphead if the brew water is kept at an ideal temperature (+/- 200f). Necessitating a warming flush to bring the group up to temp. Alternately, the boiler temp can be higher to offset the cold group. But that would lead to overheating if pulling many shots in a row. I'd rather avoid the need to guess where the group temperature is at any point in time. Having independent heating control of the group and boiler should keep temperatures steady regardless of the # of shots pulled. In my home it's usually 1 or 2, with company it can be a half-dozen in a row.

The cartridge heater also has the advantage of eliminating the return line from the group to the bottom of the boiler. The potential for pushing colder water into the group when the pump is engaged is removed. The cold water from the reservoir will enter the bottom of the boiler near the element and hot water will exit from the top cap of the boiler. Also, I'm not sure where to locate the RTD probe. Somewhere in the top third seems reasonable.

I'll snap lots of photos as it takes shape.

Russ
 
yamhill
Top  #11 Print Post
Posted on 05/25/2013 1:38 PM
Russ,

I can't wait to see it.

Have you seen this video? It's Greek to me literally, so it can be hard to read the descriptive text in the, but you can tell a lot from the pictures.



John
Quest M3 w/ Artisan via ESP32 emulating TC4. Previous roasters include: IMEX digirosto 1500, various popcorn popper roasters, and Behmor. Espresso: Quick Mill Vetrano; previous espresso PIDed Rancilio Silvia. Also Chemex, Hario, and Melitta drip; Cory and Yama vacuum/siphon; bodum French press; aeropress; Mazzer Major, Hario mini, and PeDe Dienes grinders.
 
Dan
Top  #12 Print Post
Posted on 05/25/2013 3:10 PM
Lylabrown, I'm not surprised they run a little cold. I think your plan will work provided the cartridge heater puts out more heat than the E-61 loses to the environment.

To me, the best solution temperature-wise for an E-61 double-boiler machine would be using a recirculating pump so that the grouphead and boiler were the same temperature, or near abouts. The problem is that I don't know of any small pumps rated for those temperatures and constant duty.
1 pound electric sample roaster, 3 pound direct-flame roaster, both handmade; modified Mazzer Mini grinder, LaSpaziale Vivaldi II automatic espresso machine. When the electricity goes out I make vacpot coffee from beans ground on my Zassenhaus hand grinder, and heat the water with a teakettle on the gas range.
 
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Lylabrown
Top  #13 Print Post
Posted on 05/26/2013 12:32 PM
Hey John, I came across Woodsmans videos a couple of months back. They were what inspired me to look into "Diy'ing" an espresso machine. Particularly the one you linked. The carbon fiber, chrome & wood looks amazing.

Quote

Dan Wrote: I think your plan will work provided the cartridge heater puts out more heat than the E-61 loses to the environment.

Dan, It'll be trial and error finding the right size heater for the job. Luckily, they're quite cheap. I'm currently using a 150 watt unit for testing, It heats the group to 200f in 10 min.


This may seem like a silly question, please humor me:
When the steam boiler auto-fill kicks in on a HX or DB machine why isn't there a spike in pressure? The pump is pushing ~130psi of cold water into a sealed vessel which is at ~13psi / 250f. Does the temperature differential from the cold water act fast enough to reduce the pressure right away? It appears that the atmosphere of saturated steam above the water would be compressed before it could cool down enough to drop in pressure. Maybe the low flow/volume of water entering the larger vessel doesn't have as much of an effect as im thinking it would.

Russ
 
Dan
Top  #14 Print Post
Posted on 05/26/2013 1:02 PM
That's a good question. I believe the OPV valve couild be purging excess pressure as the water comes in.
1 pound electric sample roaster, 3 pound direct-flame roaster, both handmade; modified Mazzer Mini grinder, LaSpaziale Vivaldi II automatic espresso machine. When the electricity goes out I make vacpot coffee from beans ground on my Zassenhaus hand grinder, and heat the water with a teakettle on the gas range.
 
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Lylabrown
Top  #15 Print Post
Posted on 07/13/2013 11:58 AM
I've shelved this one for the moment. Namely because of this:

img69.imageshack.us/img69/8796/n4tq.jpg

It's a 1993 Elektra La Deliciosa & matching grinder (re-branded Macap M4) purchased off craigslist for $175.00. Both are in perfect working order. Regular maintenance was done by Stefano of espressocare.

It was love at first shot.
 
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