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Burr Grinders
allenb
I like flat disc grinders (as used in the Vario model) for espresso and any coffee brewing suited for fine ground coffee but in my experience in coffee equipment setup and service, any flat disc less than 3" (75 mm) diameter will typically produce an abundance of fines accompanied by various larger particles and usually flakes when getting near the size particle I typically use for drip and especially vacuum pot or press pot. The Baratza Vario uses a 54 mm disc and would most likely suffer in this area. In reading customer reviews it appears to be one of the major complaints from people using it for drip brewing.

I've found that neither brand name nor price is any guarantee of the quality of grind one can expect in the non-commercial grinder segment. It's too bad that most of us are forced to purchase, try it and return it until we find the one that meets our minimum requirements but that's what we should expect if we don't have the luxury of experimenting with one locally.

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
baldheadracing
True, the steel-burred Vario won't be comparable to a 75mm+ flat or a bulk grinder. While a lot of shops use the Fort? Brew Grinder (same burrs) in their pour-over bars, Blue Bottle, for example, uses the Mythos. I have a set of 75 mm Mythos burrs waiting for my Eureka, so I'll eventually be able to compare for myself. All I have been able to compare to are 64mm flats and various conicals (38mm-83mm), all of which I felt were inferior to what I could taste with the Vario retrofitted with steel burrs. (All the blind testing that I have done used cupping as the brew method.)

Note the comments that you read are probably based on the Mahlkonig ceramic burrs in the Vario. While the ceramic burrs are commonly rated as better than their burr size for espresso, they are not that well-regarded for coarser grinds. Conversely, the steel burrs were designed by Ditting for brew, and they won't work for espresso (in a Vario).
 
allenb

Quote

Note the comments that you read are probably based on the Mahlkonig ceramic burrs in the Vario.


I know one of the bad reviews was on one with steel burrs but who knows how coarse they were trying to achieve. Obviously, if someone is looking for a clean 2.0 mm particle size for ultra coarse press pot then they're asking for trouble with most grinders.

It's too bad that the old Grindmaster bulk grinders with their amazingly efficient and accurate segmented burrs were attached to a body with zero sex appeal, at least in a modern, high end shop. They fit in fine in a 50's retro shop. We did grind tests (drip grind) between Mahlkonig VTA6, Dittings, Bunns etc for best, consistent, least fines grind and Grindmaster blew all of them away every time. I never understood why their burr design was never copied. Probably a patent issue.

I think it's asking much too much for any company to come up with a grinder that will produce both the perfect espresso and press pot grind from the same unit.

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
baldheadracing
Grindmaster-type burrs (a.k.a. "ghost burrs") are very popular in the far east - the Japanese Fuji Royale R-440 (shop grinder) being the "standard." There are smaller home models (Fuji R-220) and various Chinese/Taiwan versions and these are quite popular - quite a few threads on home-barista comparing the various models. Unfortunately, not worth the transportation cost of importing into North America, especially when used Grindmasters, Bunns, etc., are readily available.
 
turtle
Grindmaster 810 is a little large for home use (physically). Needing 25" + height to open the top the one I had did not come close to fitting under my cabinets (even with the lid closed). The wife was not too pleased with the size of it so I sold it. Nice grinder for a "bachelor" who likes coffee

I had to put a short mini hopper on my supper jolly to get it to fit under the kitchen cabinets with an inch or two to spare.


The wife has been pretty understanding of my "coffee hobby", allowing me entire wall of the kitchen so I can "make a cup of coffee" AND letting me play around.





edit to remove photos that are already posted in this thread.
Edited by ginny on 12/08/2015 9:13 AM
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum
Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
snwcmpr

Quote

About the only thing negative I can say about Baratza grinders is you MUST never change the grinder setting UNLESS the grinder is running.

Is that only if you leave beans in the hopper? I always run my weighed beans all the way until gone, none left in the hopper.

I say that after having a Viruoso for years and now I have a Preciso.

Another point for Baratza. i called asking about grinders. they gave me a credit for the old one when I bought another. A refurbished Preciso.

Baratza customer service is the best, too.

Ken in NC
--------------
Backwoods Roaster
"I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast."

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".
 
BenKeith
That's anytime you are going to a finer grind. You can go to a coarser grind because the burrs are moving further apart but when you are going to a finer grind, there is almost always going to be some grinds and pieces of beans left behind that will be holding the burrs apart, and trying to force them in with those leftovers is usually going to make bad things happen.

If the motor is running, then it will just grind anything in there a little finer and not cause a problem getting jammed between the burrs.

However, just to keep from going out without it running and thinking you might be too far and try going back finer, it's best just to hit the button to make it run anytime you are adjusting it.
 
turtle

Quote

snwcmpr wrote:

Quote

About the only thing negative I can say about Baratza grinders is you MUST never change the grinder setting UNLESS the grinder is running.

Is that only if you leave beans in the hopper? I always run my weighed beans all the way until gone, none left in the hopper.


Get in the habit of turning ANY grinder on before making setting changes. Safer that way.

That is how I run my weight based grinders when I have more than 2 different coffees roasted. Start with an emptty hopper, dump in what I think is the correct amount and grind until they are all gone, if I need more I'll drop a few more in the hopper until the grinder shuts off at the set weight.

There are always going to be beans in the grinder if you use weight based as the grinder will shut off when the weight is reached. If you grind the rest you will have too much weight.

If I only have 2 coffees roasted, I'll fill the hopper on both about half way and keep the rest of the roasted beans in a vacuum can.

I have re-writable "stickies" on both hoppers so I can write on each grinder what beans (and date roasted) right on the hopper. Wipes off easily.

I don't like the shut off hoppers. If you don't keep them filled they "capture" beans so it is hard to do the "dump only this much in" type of grinding as you will always have 2-6 beans caught somewhere in the hopper.

the old style funnel hoppers flow better... at least for me they do.

Quote

snwcmpr wrote:
I say that after having a Viruoso for years and now I have a Preciso.

Another point for Baratza. i called asking about grinders. they gave me a credit for the old one when I bought another. A refurbished Preciso.

Baratza customer service is the best, too.

Ken in NC


I've traded in several grinders back to Baratza for refurbished models.

They are very easy to do business with.
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum
Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
snwcmpr
I always empty the grinder of all beans every time i use it. I weigh and pour into the hopper. I don't drink enough coffee to leave beans to go stale in the grinder.
Baratza instructions do say run it while adjusting, if there are beans in it.

Ken in NC
--------------
Backwoods Roaster
"I wish I could taste as well as I wish I could roast."

As Abraham Lincoln said "Do not trust everything you read on the internet".
 
allenb

Quote

baldheadracing wrote:

Grindmaster-type burrs (a.k.a. "ghost burrs") are very popular in the far east - the Japanese Fuji Royale R-440 (shop grinder) being the "standard." There are smaller home models (Fuji R-220) and various Chinese/Taiwan versions and these are quite popular - quite a few threads on home-barista comparing the various models. Unfortunately, not worth the transportation cost of importing into North America, especially when used Grindmasters, Bunns, etc., are readily available.


I'm glad you mentioned the Fuji Royale grinder. I had forgotten all about it after seeing a write up on one two or three years ago and I remember seeing the grindmaster burr style on it. So there's more Asian grinders out there you've seen with this style burr as well? If you get a chance, please post links to the others as I might be interested in getting my hands on one for a future replacement for my Solis 166.

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
baldheadracing
The most well-known are the Yang-Chia/Flying Horse/Feima/Bella Taiwan grinders. (They also make very well-regarded roasters - ciel-007 has one, for example.) (click on the UK flag for English)http://www.bellat... (Yang Chia is the manufacturer (Made in Taiwan); Bella Taiwan is their distributor.)

However, most reports are that the Fuji Royale are better (and considerably more expensive, but a lot easier to buy and have shipped to the US). The 610N "Ghost burr" version is the competitor to the Fuji R-220. Both of these are reasonably-sized for home use.

Another contender are the various Kalita models (same Kalitta that does the Kalitta Wave pourover brewers) which are suspected to be re-branded Yang Chia's (there are so many copies of copies being made ...). However, the Kalita's that people are looking at do not have ghost burrs. You can see what the little Fuji (the 220) can do, and its burrs, vs. the Kalita Nice Cut at this link (in Chinese, but pics are pics ...)
(If that link doesn't work, Google "Kalita Nice Cut" and the link should be on the first page.)

Lots of discussion, and links to where to buy (that ships to the US) for all of these can be found via this H-B thread: http://www.home-b...35342.html

Myself, I really like the "big" Fuji R-440. The R-220 is next. However, I have to compare the cost to a used Bunn G1 retrofitted with Ditting 804 (machined) burrs ...
Edited by JackH on 12/09/2015 3:11 PM
 
Tony_C

Quote

turtle wrote:
$115 for a refurb directly from Baratza.


Picked one up for 98.50. It's on it's way. Thanks for the help!
 
JackH
Which model did you get Tony?
---Jack

KKTO Roaster.
 
baldheadracing
Some more ghost burr pics posted on H-B today: http://www.home-b...ml#p441018
 
allenb
Thanks Craig for posting the links to HB ghost burr topics and the other competitors to Fuji. I had no idea there was any interest out there in this style of burr but certainly looks like folks have hunted them down and taken a liking to them. This supplies additional reinforcement to my peev about the good ole USA being left in the dust when it comes to producing the variety and quality we're wanting.

I'm going to have to seriously consider forking out the $ for the Fuji even though the Yang-Chia 610N looks very promising.

How did this type of burr get the name "ghost burr"?

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
baldheadracing
You got me. I have no idea...
 
Tony_C

Quote

JackH wrote:

Which model did you get Tony?


Baratza Encore from Batch Coffee in Plymouth, Mass, and arrived within a day. Excellent service, and was in touch with them from start to delivery. And I will also be picking up an Esatto. Yup, I know may thing it's expensive, but I want it. Of course it was a Christmas gift to myself, so I have to wait to use it.
 
turtle
Depending on what you will be grinding for, the internal base setting can be tweaked to give you better consistency within that range.

https://www.youtu...vPmA2laBzM
Edited by JackH on 12/11/2015 3:33 AM
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum
Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
Tony_C
Course will be my setting for pour over Chemex, but thanks for the instruction to fine tune it.
Edited by JackH on 12/11/2015 3:37 AM
 
turtle

Quote

Tony_C wrote:

Course will be my setting for pour over Chemex, but thanks for the instruction to fine tune it.


The factory base setting should be fine for Chemex.

If you find you are using the last few ticks of the setting (on the coarse side) you may want to move the base setting a little coarser.

What this will do is move the grind selection more to the center of the setting spectrum.

The base setting does not effect the grind, only where on the settings selection ring the selected grind occurs.

Did that make sense ?!?!?

I think I need another cup of coffee before answering i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u414/turtle-web/misc/smiley/coffee_pc_zps1f03f234.gif
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum
Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
Tony_C
Makes complete sense.


edit to remove quote, you quoted the post above, in your own conversation, not needed.
Edited by ginny on 12/12/2015 10:02 AM
 
CharcoalRoaster
Allen thanks for the heads up on a Solis 166 - I just picked one up off eBay for $55shipped. Looking forward to it as a replacement for my burned out Maestro.
ThumbsUp
 
CharcoalRoaster
Anything quirky about setting up my grind or anything on that machine?
 
allenb
Nice! Hopefully it will be a low mileage unit and give you good service. A word of caution on older model home use grinders. They are meant for intermittent use only as the universal AC/DC motors on them can get real hot fast and if not allowed to cool down in between brews, the bearings can get hot enough to cause damage. These are not good for production runs!

Allen
1/2 lb and 1 lb drum, Siemens Sirocco fluidbed, presspot, chemex, cajun biggin brewer from the backwoods of Louisiana
 
turtle

Quote

CharcoalRoaster wrote:
a replacement for my burned out Maestro.
ThumbsUp


Just out of curiosity?

What is wrong with your Maestro (or is it a Maestro plus)?

I did a complete rebuild/upgrade of mine for around $20 in parts. If the motor is gone that is expensive ($40) but most of the parts are $10 +/-

I sold it years ago but other than that single rebuild/upgrade I got a good decade of daily use out of it.
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum
Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
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