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What Grinder for Pour Over??
walt_in_hawaii
Top  #1 Print Post
Posted on 09/09/2016 3:50 PM
OK, I've got a huge La Pavoni commercial grinder which is literally collecting cobwebs, it ground great espresso and can go exceptionally fine. But lately my efforts have been concentrated at doing better pour overs... not espresso. I always thought I could 'roughen up' the grinder burrs and go to a much coarser grind to use it for pour overs, but then I stopped with my hand actually over the hopper just before pouring in the beans. Being a commercial model, the hopper is HUGE and can hold a couple pounds of beans. Of course, I only use about 3 tablespoons of beans at a time for about 2 1/2 liquid cups of water for my morning mug... so there are 2 concerns here:

1) the burrs accumulate grounds in them, so your coffee sort of 'smears' and you'll get different grounds from yesterdayday, etc, etc. I know this is unavoidable in burr grinders, but I don't want to disassemble after every grind. who does?? But this grinder has large burrs, so ground retention is an issue.
2) having so few beans per cup, it means the huge hopper is madness and will remain empty most of the time. But it also means you have a start to when the grounds come out, and a long trailing edge with a few grounds coming out, which goes on... and on... irrititating but not terminally so.

I have abandoned my La Pavoni lately and purchased a hand grinder, an Orphan Espresso Pharos which also has large burrs, but works wonderfully for espresso. I'm playing with the idea of opening up the ground size and using it for pour through, but not sure here. Do you guys have a separate grinder, say, a Baratza or something for your pour through duties?

thanks,
walt
 
seedlings
Top  #2 Print Post
Posted on 09/14/2016 10:15 AM
Once you get an espresso grind set, it's frustrating to back it off for drip, then get back to the exact same setting you had. Every day. Maybe twice a day. A 2nd grinder is super helpful with dual duties.

If you're concerned about old grounds, then hand grind a few beans and discard right before brewing.

What grinder to get for grinding 60g (instead of 15 or 20)? Good question that I can't answer with authority. I have a 1950s Grindmaster like they would have used at a grocery store. I don't do espresso any more (too much maintenance on machine and prep time and roast time).

We use a Baratza Encore grinder at church for drip. It does an acceptable job at that, but the static cling associated with the plastic housing and plastic bin is maddening, so keep that in mind.

CHAD

*edit: I misread some of your first post. That La Pavoni could easily be used for your drip coffee. I don't think it holds as many grounds as you think, but still, just run a few beans through if you're concerned. You don't need to keep beans in the hopper - I never did when I had a similar Rossi. Dump in what you want to use and go. Does your LP have a doser?
Edited by seedlings on 09/14/2016 10:21 AM
Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500
Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover
 
walt_in_hawaii
Top  #3 Print Post
Posted on 09/14/2016 11:32 AM
Chad, yes the LP has a doser, which means the grinder throws grounds into a lot of the vaned compartments set aside for each dose and you have to pull pull pull pull until its empty... and you outlined the maddening problem with my other grinder, the Pharos perfectly; once I have it set up for espresso with a particular bean, I don't like changing the setting as its hard to get it dialed spot on for the perfect amount of pull time with my europiccola; although lately I'm like you, I haven't prepared an espresso in a month, too much work, I will just do a pour over instead (not to mention the calories in a mocha or capucchino!).
Since I'm not doing espresso as much, I think I'm resigned to just reset the Pharos for grind and try it out. THAT's also a chore, the Pharos is GREAT as a grinder per se, but getting the beans INTO it and the grounds OUT of it is really something of a nightmare. My palm has permanent depressions in it from all the striking (you have to hit the grinder repeatedly to get the grounds to fall out, while rotating it slightly side to side, the exit hole is tiny)
 
turtle
Top  #4 Print Post
Posted on 09/18/2016 9:21 AM
It is hard to beat a Baratza for electric run pour over grinding.

I've owned all of their models over the years and every one of them is acceptable for pour over grinding.

Entry level are inexpensive and they sell direct refurbs with the same warranty as a new grinder.

List goes up every Thursday.

http://www.baratza.com/cgi-bin/commerce.cgi?search=action&category=RFRB

If you get one of their lower level grinders, consider an esatto weight based attachment. There is nothing like pushing the button, walking away, and ending up with the exact amount of ground coffee. I used an esatto on all of my grinders before moving to the 3 Forte-BG machines I now use.

i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u414/turtle-web/food/coffee/grinders/baratza/esatto_empty_zps05b1dd92.jpg

i1066.photobucket.com/albums/u414/turtle-web/food/coffee/grinders/esatto_stuffed_zps353106f8.jpg
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum
Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
MPSAN
Top  #5 Print Post
Posted on 09/18/2016 2:03 PM
I never heard of the essato...I have an Encore, but wonder, if we keep the whole beans in the hopper and tell it to grind 30 gms? Will that not leave the rest of the beans exposed to the air?
"If it Ain't Broke, Fix it 'til it is"!
 
MPSAN
Top  #6 Print Post
Posted on 09/18/2016 2:29 PM
...also, don't you have to take everything apart in order to clean the grinder? I mean I often turn the Encore upside down to clear out the chaff.
"If it Ain't Broke, Fix it 'til it is"!
 
homeroaster
Top  #7 Print Post
Posted on 09/19/2016 9:25 AM
You can't go wrong with the capresso 560 Infinity conical Burr Grinder. You can have it in 2 days if you purchase it for $89 on amazon.com. The conical Burr is machined, not cast, and very sharp so the coffee is not pulverized but rather cut, and the grind is very uniform. I have used mine for about 5 years now and I replaced the upper grinding burr one time because I got a rock in the grind and it pretty much destroyed it. For some reason you cannot purchase the lower grinding Burr. The upper Burr was easy to purchase and easy to install.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"
http://www.homero...
http://www.facebo...EdNeedham1
*********************
 
Web
turtle
Top  #8 Print Post
Posted on 09/19/2016 10:23 AM

Quote

MPSAN wrote:

I never heard of the essato...I have an Encore, but wonder, if we keep the whole beans in the hopper and tell it to grind 30 gms? Will that not leave the rest of the beans exposed to the air?


A lot of times when I have several types of beans roasted I will fill the grounds bin with beans and weigh what I want to grind using the built in grinder scale, then pour them into the hopper and grind them all up, leaving the grinder empty for the next choice of beans.

It's nice to have a scale attached to the grinder even if you just use it like a scale

OR....

Just pour in what you "think"is close. IF you end up with 15 or 20 beans in the hopper over night I doubt you would notice a taste difference in the morning.

I used my Esatto for years before moving to Baratza grinders with built in scales.

Grinder hoppers are not air tight but they are better than spreading the beans around on the counter.

A full funnel type Baratza hopper will hold 4-5 days worth of beans. I doubt they would "stale" in that short amount of time even if you filled the hopper to the top.
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum
Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
turtle
Top  #9 Print Post
Posted on 09/19/2016 10:30 AM

Quote

MPSAN wrote:

...also, don't you have to take everything apart in order to clean the grinder? I mean I often turn the Encore upside down to clear out the chaff.


I just remove the hopper and stick a vacuum hose in to remove the old grounds. I do this with my Baratza and Mazzer grinders.

Every couple of months I will take them further apart (remove the burrs) and do a more through cleaning.

I would imagine this would be the same for any electric grinder.

If you want to disassemble the entire grinder (removing the case and motor requires little to no tools other than a screwdriver) it is pretty simple with Baratza grinders. Unlike a Mazzer or other commercial grinder where it is major surgery to get them broken down.

http://www.baratz...al-enc.pdf

.
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum
Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
MPSAN
Top  #10 Print Post
Posted on 09/19/2016 12:57 PM
Thank You, turtle. Sounds interesting. I do have a good food scale I use when roasting, however, I have to think about this more. I do not grind every day. I KNOW I should, but I grind a bunch and store it in Foodsaver vacuum sealed Canisters in a dark cabinet.
"If it Ain't Broke, Fix it 'til it is"!
 
walt_in_hawaii
Top  #11 Print Post
Posted on 09/20/2016 12:08 PM
Mpsan, I love turtle's advice too, it always seems sane and well thought out... until I saw a picture of his 'coffee wall' ;)
he's got like one of everything ever made on his counter, I think.
 
MPSAN
Top  #12 Print Post
Posted on 09/20/2016 1:19 PM
I agree Walt.
"If it Ain't Broke, Fix it 'til it is"!
 
turtle
Top  #13 Print Post
Posted on 09/20/2016 1:27 PM

Quote

MPSAN wrote:

Thank You, turtle. Sounds interesting. I do have a good food scale I use when roasting, however, I have to think about this more. I do not grind every day. I KNOW I should, but I grind a bunch and store it in Foodsaver vacuum sealed Canisters in a dark cabinet.


You should try to brew within 5 minutes of grinding your beans.

No point in worrying about a grinder, brew timing, water temp, etc if you are not using the freshest product (fresh roasted within 14 days of consumption, ground just before brewing). After that "close enough" is just fine.

You would not roast a years worth of beans and "sit on them" Why take good fresh roasted beans, grind them up, and sit on them?

If I brew three times in a day, I grind just before each brew. The only exception is if I have hot out of the roaster beans. Then I may grind them before starting everything else (10 minutes before brewing them) to let them sit exposed to the air for a little longer. By little I mean another 5 minutes
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum
Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
ginny
Top  #14 Print Post
Posted on 09/20/2016 1:37 PM

Quote

direct refurbs with the same warranty as a new grinder



after a member issue with the refurbs, I would stay a mile away.

I do agree with Ed

Quote

You can't go wrong with the capresso 560 Infinity conical Burr Grinder. You can have it in 2 days if you purchase it for $89 on amazon.com. The conical Burr is machined, not cast, and very sharp so the coffee is not pulverized but rather cut, and the grind is very uniform.




ginny


cool
 
JackH
Top  #15 Print Post
Posted on 09/20/2016 2:50 PM
Walt said in his first post that he used only about 3 tablespoons of beans at a time for about 2 1/2 liquid cups daily and already has a large commercial grinder.

Ed's suggestion is good or just use the small hand grinder for that small amount. Unless you like expensive toys.
---Jack

KKTO Roaster.
 
walt_in_hawaii
Top  #16 Print Post
Posted on 09/20/2016 10:27 PM
Are you KIDDING?? I'm a guy. Toys? What toys?! (to significant other)
GIMME TOYS (to myself)
 
seedlings
Top  #17 Print Post
Posted on 09/22/2016 8:57 AM

Quote

homeroaster wrote:

You can't go wrong with the capresso 560 Infinity conical Burr Grinder. You can have it in 2 days if you purchase it for $89 on amazon.com. The conical Burr is machined, not cast, and very sharp so the coffee is not pulverized but rather cut, and the grind is very uniform. I have used mine for about 5 years now and I replaced the upper grinding burr one time because I got a rock in the grind and it pretty much destroyed it. For some reason you cannot purchase the lower grinding Burr. The upper Burr was easy to purchase and easy to install.


Thanks Ed! Forgot about that one.

CHAD
Roaster: CoffeeAir II 2# DIY air roaster
Grinder: Vintage Grindmaster 500
Brewers: Vintage Cory DCU DCL, Aeropress, Press, Osaka Titanium pourover
 
homeroaster
Top  #18 Print Post
Posted on 09/22/2016 10:08 AM
The Ace in the Hole with the capresso 560 is the conical Burr configuration. It is machined, not cast. I have a large la pavoni zip grinder and a commercial whole bag grinder. Both use very large machined grinding burrs and are able to produce a very consistent grind with not a lot of powder. Most of the Burr Grinders that are sold in stores have a very small set of grinding burrs that are cast, not machined, and they pulverize the coffee more than grinding it.
Another advantage of the Capresso is that it uses a gear motor which makes it less shrill and noisy as it grinds. Ninety bucks is not a whole lot of money for a grinder that produces a very consistent grind and will last a long time.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"
http://www.homero...
http://www.facebo...EdNeedham1
*********************
 
Web
walt_in_hawaii
Top  #19 Print Post
Posted on 09/22/2016 3:02 PM
Thanks Ed. That was the premise behind Orphan Espresso's Pharos model... he designed the grinder around the burr set, picking one of the largest commercial burr sets you can find, very high quality; then designed the case around them so it is very minimalist (hand powered), small as possible for that large burr set and produces excellent quality grounds and can go as fine as talcum powder, it seems. I have not yet tried it with coarser ground size as for pour over... speaking of which, what ground size do you guys like best for pour over with a paper cone filter? I'm approximating, of course; but I guess I try to shoot for something fairly coarse, perhaps .5mm in size? What say you?

Its probably a tad finer than that, you invariably get some powder, but I usually set the size for pour over as 'fine as possible' until I get a little bitterness in the cup, then go one coarser... is that what you guys do? but its tough to quantify the size...
 
homeroaster
Top  #20 Print Post
Posted on 09/22/2016 4:04 PM
I think you just adjust the grind size so that the water drains fairly quickly. I use a Chemex pour over, and the grind is similar to store-bought pre-ground. If I go farther than that it seems to take forever for the water to drain through and it is over extracted.
*********************
Ed Needham
"to absurdity and beyond!"
http://www.homero...
http://www.facebo...EdNeedham1
*********************
 
Web
turtle
Top  #21 Print Post
Posted on 09/24/2016 8:53 AM

Quote

walt_in_hawaii wrote:

I have not yet tried it with coarser ground size as for pour over... speaking of which, what ground size do you guys like best for pour over with a paper cone filter? I'm approximating, of course; but I guess I try to shoot for something fairly coarse, perhaps .5mm in size? What say you?

Its probably a tad finer than that, you invariably get some powder, but I usually set the size for pour over as 'fine as possible' until I get a little bitterness in the cup, then go one coarser... is that what you guys do? but its tough to quantify the size...


I grind to a size that gives a 4-5 minute brew time (including a 30-45 second steep period). I steep until the bloom starts to collapse which is different with each origin, then 3.5 to 4.5 minutes of brew time.

I've found that each pour over filter requires a bit of a tweak to the grinder settings to stay within this time frame.

.
Mick - "Drinking in life one cup at a time"
"I'd rather be roasting coffee"

Roaster 1: San Franciscan SF-1
Roaster 2: Hottop B-2K+
Roaster 3: 2 kilo Chinese drum
Grinders: Mazzer Major - Forte BG (x3)
Pour over: Hario - Bee House - Chemex - Kalita - Bodum
Drip: Bunn CWTF15-1 & CW15-TC (commercials)
Espresso: Pasquini Livia 90 auto
Vacuum: Cona - Bodum
Press: Frieling - Bodum Colombia
 
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