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First roasting
pandiani
Top  #1 Print Post
Posted on 11/10/2016 1:47 PM
Good evening, today was the first day of my life that I have roasted.
I used a popcorn popper, bypassing the bimetallic thermostat.
? as the temperature reaches around 230 degrees Celsius.
I used 100 gr. bean, and the times were 8.30 minutes.
The only thing is that the temperature rises too fast and difficult to control.
I have to find a solution.
Anyway, I'm happy with the result
pandiani attached the following image:
wp_20161110_12_47_55_pro.jpg
 
ChicagoJohn
Top  #2 Print Post
Posted on 11/10/2016 7:07 PM
I have some experience with a modified popcorn popper but none with one supplied by 220VAC. JackH mentioned that some people have found they can reduce the power going to the heating coils by using a long extension cord. Anything you do to reduce the voltage will also reduce the power to the blower fan.

You might want to try using fewer beans; like around 80 grams; to see what effect that has. The bean quantity can restrict air flow and that may result in more heat building up in the roasting chamber. It would be something to try in addition to a long extension cord approved for the wattage of your roaster.

Finally, as someone else mentioned, when you have gone a little beyond first crack, you should try turning off the power to your popper and immediately dumping the contents onto a surface that will allow them to cool quickly, such as a screen or metal colander that will allow air to pass through, and you may use a fan to blow air onto the beans as well. Cool them down as fast as you can after a brief time, around 15 - 30 seconds, after first crack and before second crack starts.

If at some future time, you decide to power the blower motor separately as described in other places on these forums and elsewhere on YouTube and other places on the internet, you will then be able to switch off the heater power while running the blower at full power, and this will cool the beans from 200C to under 100C in a minute or two.

Nice to see you are making progress.
So many beans; so little time....
 
pandiani
Top  #3 Print Post
Posted on 11/11/2016 3:43 AM
Thanks ChicagoJohn,
I have waited too long, I expected to hear the second crack, not only after I waited another 30 seconds ..... How many errors.
My initial idea was to fuel the engine of the motor separately, but, compared with the received recommendations, telling me to wait, try, and see how it goes.
another member of the forum, which is helping me a lot, he suggested to decrease the amount of beans (about 80 gr.) and tilt the popcorn popper of about 15 ?.
Also try with extension cord.
At most, my popcorn popper reaches 230 ? C if I put an extension cord does not come more to 230 ? C, I suppose, they will be roasted?

I started with a popcorn popper because most, simple and space-saving, but in the box I also have a bread machine that does not use for several years. I think that would be a higher step, but first I want to find the right set up with the popcorn popper. What do you think of this?
 
jkoll42
Top  #4 Print Post
Posted on 11/11/2016 8:59 AM
I started out with a popper as well and there are a few ways to slow the roast. If you don't want to mess with splitting the fan/heater circuit your only option is to use a smaller bean load. This lets the air pass through easier so there is less heat transfer. It sort of works but it's not the best option.

If you split the circuit there are two possibilities. The cheapest but most annoying is to just wire a light switch to the heater circuit and flip it on/off at whatever intervals are necessary to maintain the appropriate rate of rise during roasting.

The more expensive but better option is to control the heating element with either a router speed control or variac.

The heatgun breadmachine is a step up but will also require modifications.

Jon
-Jon
Honey badger 1k, Bunn LPG-2E, Technivorm, Cimbali Max Hybrid, Vibiemme Double Domo V3
 
btreichel
Top  #5 Print Post
Posted on 11/11/2016 10:01 AM
I use to run dual variacs on my popper before I computerized the controls and got bored with push button roasting. Also variacs aren't cheap.
 
ChicagoJohn
Top  #6 Print Post
Posted on 11/11/2016 12:45 PM

Quote

pandiani wrote:

At most, my popcorn popper reaches 230 ? C if I put an extension cord does not come more to 230 ? C, I suppose, they will be roasted??


The temperature you are citing depends a lot on where you have the thermocouple placed or how you are measuring it. My thermocouple is placed in the beans off to one side so it is not directly in the air stream, and I am stopping my roasts at around 205C, well after the end of first crack.

In a popper without control of temerature, you may go directly from first crack into second crack and not be able to detect the change.

I would suggest you start out with a reduced charge weight, maybe 60 gm, and try to time your roast after you hear the first first crack. Try a series of times after that point as a start; maybe in 20 second increments. After the time limit is reached for each of them, turn off the power and dump the contents out immediately into something that will allow the beans to cool as quickly as possible.

If you do perhaps six roasts with times of 0, 20, 40, 60, 80, and 100 seconds after you hear first crack and then put the results in piles side-by-side, you might be able to get an idea of where the best target time is. You would be looking for uniformity and color differences between batch times. If you have a way to brew small quantities, like an Aeropress or a pour-over cone, you could try comparing how the different times taste to you.

If you want to reduce the quantity of beans you're using since they are expensive where you live, you might try something like 10 and 40 seconds after first crack starts, evaluate those, and then decide what to try next based on your observations; maybe somewhere beyond 40 or maybe between 10 and 40.

There are a lot of variables in each person's particular equipment, and probably the best way to try to optimize is to experiment systematically with it.


Whatever you decide, be sure to let us know of your progress.
BBQ grill
Edited by ChicagoJohn on 11/11/2016 12:51 PM
So many beans; so little time....
 
pandiani
Top  #7 Print Post
Posted on 11/11/2016 4:12 PM
@jkoll42: in fact I would like to divide my system and check the heating element with a router speed control, but how much? and then they are not very practical, but if anyone helps me I can do everything. I only say that I was not born electronic expert 😳. The bread machine mainly requires no electronic structural changes I guess, I say wrong?

@ Btreichel: how much does a variac? and can I use one else in his place?

@ ChicagoJohn: my thermocouple wire is placed in the center to about 1cm. from the bottom, in the middle of the stream, because it is them who roaster beans, I thought was right, annotare mistake 😔
So you say you get the first crack (arriving around five minutes with 100 grams of beans) and try switching off and remove the beans, for example 5'20 "? But now I tell you that my second crack came around to 8 minutes aster numeros on/off. Would I still try to 5'20 "and 5'40" etc. etc.?
Wow all very interesting Grin
 
ChicagoJohn
Top  #8 Print Post
Posted on 11/11/2016 4:51 PM

Quote

pandiani wrote:

@ ChicagoJohn: my thermocouple wire is placed in the center to about 1cm. from the bottom, in the middle of the stream, because it is them who roaster beans, I thought was right, annotare mistake 😔
So you say you get the first crack (arriving around five minutes with 100 grams of beans) and try switching off and remove the beans, for example 5'20 "? But now I tell you that my second crack came around to 8 minutes aster numeros on/off. Would I still try to 5'20 "and 5'40" etc. etc.?
Wow all very interesting Grin


I think your thermcouple would very likely read hotter than mine does assuming that your popper directs a stream of air directly upwards (as mine does). So we probably can't directly compare temperatures.

So I would still suggest cutting the bean load back until you don't have to stir them to get good motion during the roast and even maybe a little lower. I use 91 grams with very good bean movement (because that is 1/5 of a pound, 453.6 gm) but I could go up to close to 100 and still get some bean motion. I think it's better for uniformity to go with less than with more. First crack at 5.5 minutes would be perfectly OK, just a little shorter than my profile which hits 1C at around 7 minutes.

When you experiment, I would initially try to use big enough changes to result in an effect that you'll be able to see easily. Then you can decide where to go from there.

But overall it sounds like you have something you can do a lot of experiments with and learn from that process. Then you can decide where to go from there. As you can see from this forum, there are lots of alternatives. I decided to stay with the popcorn popper myself because it can make small batches and that has allowed me to try a lot more variations if I were roasting half a pound or a pound at a time.

While many folks here helped me get started as they are helping you, I found that once I got a roasting system working, I learned best from trying things and seeing what happens as opposed to trying to follow a recipe that has worked for someone else.
So many beans; so little time....
 
pandiani
Top  #9 Print Post
Posted on 11/11/2016 5:09 PM
is, in fact, the popper would be perfect for me, in the house we are my wife, myself, and a little 5 year old who for now is better not to take coffee. I want to grow and learn I wish my popper was super and tostasse in 10/12 minutes, who knows, maybe dream. Tomorrow afternoon, if all goes well I roast 60 gr. with slightly more high thermocouple (right?) How high from the bottom? And let's see how it goes
Grazie
 
jkoll42
Top  #10 Print Post
Posted on 11/11/2016 7:04 PM

Quote

pandiani wrote:

@jkoll42: in fact I would like to divide my system and check the heating element with a router speed control, but how much? and then they are not very practical, but if anyone helps me I can do everything. I only say that I was not born electronic expert 😳. The bread machine mainly requires no electronic structural changes I guess, I say wrong?



What is the make of the popper? It's not too difficult to separate the heater but I have no idea what types of poppers you have over there. If both heat and fan are 220vac it's easier than if the fan is running 12vdc.

In the US we have this router speed control which is extremely cheap (with coupons it's about half that price) but has worked for many years for me but obviously you would have to see if there is a similar product for you - http://www.harbor...43060.html

The bread machine can either be a fairly easy modification or a major modification depending on the exact brand and model. It's a great way to roast .5 kilo cheaply and easily.
-Jon
Honey badger 1k, Bunn LPG-2E, Technivorm, Cimbali Max Hybrid, Vibiemme Double Domo V3
 
pandiani
Top  #11 Print Post
Posted on 11/12/2016 12:21 AM
Good morning I open a link where there are pictures of my poppers opened ardes

http://forum.home...ad_id=5159

For speed control router I can not find your model here, but if I mentioned one that goes well ... I know that will definitely be 220v, then? 15 amps okay? AC, right?
For the bread machine is an old Kenwood BM 250 (I have at least 10 years) and in any case, in the family who drink coffee are only two so for now the poppers would be perfect
Edited by JackH on 11/12/2016 3:25 AM
 
pandiani
Top  #12 Print Post
Posted on 11/12/2016 9:13 AM
Roasted 60 gr. Unwashed Arabica Santos of Brazil Fazenda Dona Francisca
(Which knowledge is sold ? 18 kg. Toasted and 12 euro kg. Green).
Committed some errors.
3', Temperature 200 ? C I have stopped the popper for 30" temp dropped to 190 ?C
5'20" temp. 210 ?C stop or for 30", decreased temp to 200 ?C.
Here is the error, as they passed the 30 "of the second stop, I have heard only 3/4 crack
Then restarted to 19", where I turned off regulating myself with the color.
So, you never heard the second crack, and especially heard only 3/4 of the first crack.
Just out put in a colander steel, cooled by Phon.
In the picture you can see where I positioned the K sensor, the various temperatures with the minutes, and the end result, unfortunately not very homogeneous.
Also important, the temperature to 8', has positioned itself, around 214/217?C never over.
Question, the temperature remains low because there is little coffee? (60 gr.)
O because the k probe, was slightly higher up and to the side?
I was wrong to turn on and off?
Because only 3/4 crack? That was the first crack, right?
Sorry for the many questions
pandiani attached the following images:
wp_20161112_14_12_42_pro.jpg wp_20161112_14_03_01_pro.jpg wp_20161112_14_01_54_pro.jpg wp_20161112_13_59_39_pro.jpg wp_20161112_13_57_39_pro.jpg wp_20161112_13_55_48_pro.jpg wp_20161112_13_54_48_pro.jpg wp_20161112_13_31_01_pro.jpg wp_20161112_13_25_22_pro.jpg wp_20161112_13_23_31_pro.jpg
 
pandiani
Top  #13 Print Post
Posted on 11/12/2016 9:33 AM
I forgot the end result
pandiani attached the following images:
wp_20161112_14_19_19_pro.jpg wp_20161112_14_13_38_pro_1.jpg
 
BenKeith
Top  #14 Print Post
Posted on 11/12/2016 10:37 AM
Do not be turning it off, that will cause drops in temps and that's bad for the flavor development. In the ideal world, you want a steady increase in temps with no decreases as the rate of roast declines during the roast cycle to first crack. Once it goes into FC, most prefer to hold the rate of roast constant as the temp increases to the desired finish.
Understand though, with your setup that would be difficult to achieve and impossible to achieve if you are turning it off and on during the roast cycle.
If necessary, you need to find some other way of regulating the roast, play with batch sizes, air flow etc but not with the power switch.
First crack can last a minute or two and the roast is good anytime after it ends. After that, it's just what characteristics you are looking for. Some even like to stop the roast during the first crack, not me.
 
pandiani
Top  #15 Print Post
Posted on 11/12/2016 11:11 AM
Unfortunately, I knew I had made a serious mistake :(
Thank's Ben
 
ChicagoJohn
Top  #16 Print Post
Posted on 11/12/2016 12:41 PM

Quote

pandiani wrote:

Unfortunately, I knew I had made a serious mistake :(
Thank's Ben


We learn by trying something, observing what happens, then deciding what to try next. I think the only real mistake is not trying something in the first place. You're making a lot of progress from where you started out !! ThumbsUp

BBQ grill
So many beans; so little time....
 
pandiani
Top  #17 Print Post
Posted on 11/12/2016 4:12 PM
I think the best way is to apply a double modify .... If I can. I smile because that to me is a company that, for many of you, that you have already done is a very simple thing, and I understand if someone smiles. But I tell you what, this is a big thanks to you, that you are here, to help many people like me, who are novices. Today I saw that the beans can roast slowly, but I have not done the right way
 
jkoll42
Top  #18 Print Post
Posted on 11/12/2016 4:16 PM
I always found it tough to get the TC in the right position in a popper to register the closest to correct bean temp. There is so much roast gas and so little bean mass it's tough to get actual bean temp.

Play around with TC placement. 1C start is a pretty consistent 204-205C so either try to find a TC placement that matches or adjust your temp readings.
-Jon
Honey badger 1k, Bunn LPG-2E, Technivorm, Cimbali Max Hybrid, Vibiemme Double Domo V3
 
ChicagoJohn
Top  #19 Print Post
Posted on 11/13/2016 10:03 AM

Quote

jkoll42 wrote:

I always found it tough to get the TC in the right position in a popper to register the closest to correct bean temp. There is so much roast gas and so little bean mass it's tough to get actual bean temp.

Play around with TC placement. 1C start is a pretty consistent 204-205C so either try to find a TC placement that matches or adjust your temp readings.


My experience is the same, Jon. On my modified poppers, 1C is around 180-185C, and different roasting processes and even placement of the TC within a given set up, as you mention, can yield wide variations in temperature at onset of 1C.

So I've always thought it best to position the TC somewhere where it's picking up the bean mass temperature as much as possible, as you say, and then just use it as a relative indicator after that. Recently after changing a TC with every effort to get it in the same place, I still saw shift in 1C onset but from then on it's been consistent.
So many beans; so little time....
 
ChicagoJohn
Top  #20 Print Post
Posted on 11/13/2016 10:19 AM

Quote

pandiani wrote:

I think the best way is to apply a double modify .... If I can.


I ruined two poppers and I also received a serious electrical shock while working on mine. So if you ever do decide to try to operate the blower and heating coil separately, my advice is to proceed very slowly and carefully, check everything several times, and be sure to always use a ground-fault interrupter to connect it to the power line, even though you plan to have the power disconnected every time you have it open to work on.

Especially dangerous working with 240 VAC !! A mistake can happen in an instant with irreversible consequences.

Before attempting a further modification of the popcorn popper, also look into using an old bread maker and heat gun as others have done, a modification that can probably be done with much less electrical change and which is reported to give excellent results. There are several other alternatives as well that can be done inexpensively.
So many beans; so little time....
 
pandiani
Top  #21 Print Post
Posted on 11/13/2016 11:14 AM
I would like to continue, possibly, with the popcorn popper, because for two people, the amount of beans to be toasted is perfect. While the bread machine, besides being much larger.
I make a proposal, if you want, and no one is forced, I dismount my popper, I take pictures, and step by step you tell me what to do.
Then send you pictures, I approved the project (always step by step) and go forward.
It could be the first work in the world forum.
I 'd like with your help, but I would not be a problem to someone
 
pandiani
Top  #22 Print Post
Posted on 11/13/2016 11:56 AM
So correct me if I'm wrong:
I will have a transformer, a dimmer and a switch.
From a hot wire of the current, part of a wire that goes to the trasformer, then depart three wires, one will go to the switch and one to the dimmer, the third wire will go to the popper heating coil.
The other pole of the switch, will go to the second cable popper resistance, thus closing the first circuit.
The other dimmer wire connects to the primary splitter transformer.
Then depart from the transformer; two wires that go to the popper fan.
So far everything should be ok.
 
pandiani
Top  #23 Print Post
Posted on 11/14/2016 12:44 PM
I wanted to take this modify, what do you say?
http://www.instructables.com/id/Popcorn-machine-made-into-a-high-class-coffee-roa/

Utilizzerei l'adattatore del laptop per alimentare il motore del ventilatore
and instead of the pulse width to control the fan speed, I would use this

http://it.rs-online.com/web/p/dimmer/8356938/

what do you think
 
btreichel
Top  #24 Print Post
Posted on 11/14/2016 7:37 PM
Looked like it was in ItalianRoflmao However, 600w doesn't need translation. Fans are a lot less power. So it should be fine
 
pandiani
Top  #25 Print Post
Posted on 11/15/2016 5:28 AM

Quote

btreichel wrote:

Looked like it was in ItalianRoflmao However, 600w doesn't need translation. Fans are a lot less power. So it should be fine


Sorry D


A question, the main resistance and the secondary must be connected together?
I read on some threed to modify, that the secondary is better to take it off.
? My temperature does not go over 217 ? C, if I do not connect the secondary resistance, my temperature will be even lower?
Also I found a transformer between the old things.
It should go well?
pandiani attached the following image:
wp_20161115_12_21_43_pro.jpg
 
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